Improper Storage of Gem Proof Copper Coins (with Images)

[MAULEMALL]

aint shocking to me at all

 

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

i wonder who informed that coinguy one guy who started that controversal but truthful thread on the pcgs boards

 

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

 

Enlighten the rest of us....

[MikeInFL]

A summary:

 

[MunkyMan95]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

[HaydenTubbs]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

[gmarguli]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

[MikeInFL]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

 

Greg, Do you dispute that these are the same coins?...Mike

[gmarguli]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

 

Greg, Do you dispute that these are the same coins?...Mike

 

Like I said earlier, I'm not going to confirm/deny any other before/after coins for reasons I've stated twice already. I've confirmed the MPL is the same and I've been open and honest with EXACTLY what was done to it so that we can all have a productive discussion. I'm willing to answer any reasonable questions about this, curation, conservation, cleaning, AT, NT, MS70, Jeweluster, Blue Ribbon, Care, and a host of other things related to this industry. What I have no desire in discussing are things that I feel have no bearing on the issue at hand or will do nothing but provide multiple tangents for this thread to go out on.

[MAULEMALL]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

 

Greg, Do you dispute that these are the same coins?...Mike

Didn't you just post this bullchit across the street?

 

If I were a betting man, I would wager Gmarguli is one of the doctors...Mike

 

Who the [embarrassing lack of self control] are you.

 

And whats your agenda....

[gmarguli]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

 

Greg, Do you dispute that these are the same coins?...Mike

Didn't you just post this bullchit across the street?

 

If I were a betting man, I would wager Gmarguli is one of the doctors...Mike

 

Who the [embarrassing lack of self control] are you.

 

And whats your agenda....

 

You should have seen the quote before he edited it. Good thing I saved a copy for my lawyer.

[MAULEMALL]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

 

Greg, Do you dispute that these are the same coins?...Mike

Didn't you just post this bullchit across the street?

 

If I were a betting man, I would wager Gmarguli is one of the doctors...Mike

 

Who the [embarrassing lack of self control] are you.

 

And whats your agenda....

 

You should have seen the quote before he edited it. Good thing I saved a copy for my lawyer.

It freakin amaizes me the ignorance of some people.

[MikeInFL]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

 

Greg, Do you dispute that these are the same coins?...Mike

Didn't you just post this bullchit across the street?

 

If I were a betting man, I would wager Gmarguli is one of the doctors...Mike

 

Who the [embarrassing lack of self control] are you.

 

And whats your agenda....

 

I'm a collector. Among other things, I collect toned proofs. I have no agenda whatsoever other than education and the betterment of the hobby...Mike

 

p.s. how was I being ignorant?

[MAULEMALL]

How can the color cause a coin to get bumped up two whole grades??? I mean, it is the same coin... Same marks on it, wear spots, etc. 2 whole grades?

 

Graders often give a coin a bump or two do to superior eye appeal.

 

Assuming those are the same coins...

 

BTW, if you remove dirt and grime to bring out the luster, that can often result in a significant grade bump.

 

Greg, Do you dispute that these are the same coins?...Mike

Didn't you just post this bullchit across the street?

 

If I were a betting man, I would wager Gmarguli is one of the doctors...Mike

 

Who the [embarrassing lack of self control] are you.

 

And whats your agenda....

 

I'm a collector. Among other things, I collect toned proofs. I have no agenda whatsoever other than education and the betterment of the hobby...Mike

 

p.s. how was I being ignorant?

I will let Greg or any of his representatives handle any discussions as too you ignorance.

[jom]

C'mon people! Why are accusations needed? Who cares who doctors coins?

 

For the last friggen time....if you think the coin is AT (slabbed or not) don't buy the God Damn thing. Or at least don't pay these idiotic premiums. If you don't KNOW the difference what business do you have buying coins in the first place? If this were implemented wouldn't that not put any "doctors" out of business?

 

To me the culprits are these, in order of blame as it were:

 

1) The buyer. Get a friggen clue before you buy coins!

2) Grading Service. All the money paid to these insufficiently_thoughtful_persons and they still don't know the difference.

3) Seller dealer. The worst thing to happen to the coin market due to the TPG's is the "dumbing down" of the coin dealers. With slabs EVERYONE can be a dealer. My blind grandmother could run a coins business and probably break even. Most don't have a clue.

 

There will always be people who doctors coins. Hell, you COULD make the argument I did when I PURPOSEFULLY placed some Kennedy halves in a Dansco holder a decade ago for the SOLE reason to have them tone. Am I not a doctor? I'm doing the same for my raw State Quarters. Uh...oh...better watch out...the doctor is in the building! Run!

 

jom

 

PS: This post is in no way directed toward any one person. It is meant for the thread and "community" in general.

[EZ_E]

I haven't been on the boards for 3 wks and I come back to people bickering like old maids. That is certainly unbecoming conduct on the NGC boards.

[gmarguli]

2) Grading Service. All the money paid to these insufficiently_thoughtful_persons and they still don't know the difference.

 

What is AT? That's something that no one seems to be able to agree on.

 

Assume that the coins tone identical in each case:

 

A1) I stick my coins in a burlap sack and hide it on top of the water heater so my brother doesn't steal them. A month later they are toned nice. Is this AT?

 

A2) I stick my coins in a burlap sack on top of the water heater so they tone nice. A month later they are toned nice. Is this AT?

 

 

 

B1) I stick my coins near my salt water aquarium. I think my fish will like them. They tone wild. Are they AT?

 

B2) I stick my coins near my salt water aquarium. I know that salt water is good for toning coins. They tone wild. Are they AT?

 

B3) I live on the beach. My coins tone wild thanks to the salt water. Are they AT?

 

B4) I send my coins to PCGS. They take 4 months to grade. It was an Express Submission. I get no free grading voucers due to the blackout days. The salt air by the PCGS building causes them to tone wild. Are they AT?

 

 

 

C1) I'm in a hurry for work and I leave my coins sitting on the leather seats of my car. It's 110 outside and 200 inside the car. 8 hours later when I get back they are toned. Is this AT?

 

C2) I wrap my coins in a piece of leather. I stick them in the oven for 8 hours at 200 degrees. They tone. Are they AT?

 

 

BTW, I have no idea what result you'd get if you actually did any of the above. Same conditions in all cases and same results (i.e. can't tell them apart). Which are AT?

[zrlevin]

I'd say yes to all, but I think most people would disagree with me.

 

JMHO

Zach

[jom]

Greg: I agree with you entirely. I guess my quote above was aimed at the TPG's saying they can distingush AT from NT. Adding to that my situation (as you know) where they grade a coin one day then later bodybag the very same coin. To me it borders on fraud but that just my opinion.

 

As you pointed out, there is an inherant problem with calling something AT based on the fact NO ONE has come up with a definition....

 

jom

[IGWT]

Can we at least agree that placing a chemical compound on a coin for the purpose of changing its color qualifies as artificial toning?

[jom]

Can we at least agree that placing a chemical compound on a coin for the purpose of changing its color qualifies as artificial toning?

 

So it is the INTENT that matters? Now the TPG's have to READ MINDS? Great...

 

 

jom

[HaydenTubbs]

I haven't been on the boards for 3 wks and I come back to people bickering like old maids. That is certainly unbecoming conduct on the NGC boards.

 

This always happens when somebody post a link to a thread across the street.

[gmarguli]

Can we at least agree that placing a chemical compound on a coin for the purpose of changing its color qualifies as artificial toning?

 

Nope. How about a person who takes a weak acid to rub the surfaces to remove the layer of ugly toning to get to more vibrant toning underneath?

 

BTW, I've seen work NCS has done to achieve the above. NCS: Professional Coin Doctors? I think not.

[IGWT]

Hmmm. Ok, then, let's try it from the other end. Is it possible for you guys to tell me what qualifies as natural toning?

[gmarguli]

Hmmm. Ok, then, let's try it from the other end. Is it possible for you guys to tell me what qualifies as natural toning?

 

No.

[IGWT]

Ahhh. Numismatic nirvana. We have reached a state where there is no distinction between artificial and natural toning. And, unless I'm mistaken, anyone who reaches this state of nirvana can deny artificially toning a coin because artificial toning does not exist.

[gmarguli]

Ahhh. Numismatic nirvana. We have reached a state where there is no distinction between artificial and natural toning. And, unless I'm mistaken, anyone who reaches this state of nirvana can deny artificially toning a coin because artificial toning does not exist.

 

I deny natural toning. Toning was not intended for coins. Circulation and commerce was. Therefore, all toning is unintended and artificial.

 

And believe it or not, that was the serious position of more than one person I have met.

[IGWT]

Ahhh. Numismatic nirvana. We have reached a state where there is no distinction between artificial and natural toning. And, unless I'm mistaken, anyone who reaches this state of nirvana can deny artificially toning a coin because artificial toning does not exist.

 

I deny natural toning. Toning was not intended for coins. Circulation and commerce was. Therefore, all toning is unintended and artificial.

 

And believe it or not, that was the serious position of more than one person I have met.

 

Well, I was close, so let me try again: Ahhh. Numismatic nirvana. We have reached a state where there is no distinction between artificial and natural toning because all toning is artificial. And, unless I'm mistaken, anyone who reaches this state of nirvana can see that there is nothing wrong with inducing color to appear on a coin; after all, it's all artificial anyway.

 

Better? I can almost feel myself elevating to a higher level of consciousness.

[gmarguli]

Ahhh. Numismatic nirvana. We have reached a state where there is no distinction between artificial and natural toning. And, unless I'm mistaken, anyone who reaches this state of nirvana can deny artificially toning a coin because artificial toning does not exist.

 

I deny natural toning. Toning was not intended for coins. Circulation and commerce was. Therefore, all toning is unintended and artificial.

 

And believe it or not, that was the serious position of more than one person I have met.

 

Well, I was close, so let me try again: Ahhh. Numismatic nirvana. We have reached a state where there is no distinction between artificial and natural toning because all toning is artificial. And, unless I'm mistaken, anyone who reaches this state of nirvana can see that there is nothing wrong with inducing color to appear on a coin; after all, it's all artificial anyway.

 

Better? I can almost feel myself elevating to a higher level of consciousness.

 

Sounds good! You're now a Level 4 Scientologist. You can bend spoons with your mind and control the outcome of sporting events.

[Brotherman]

Can we at least agree that placing a chemical compound on a coin for the purpose of changing its color qualifies as artificial toning?

 

Nope. How about a person who takes a weak acid to rub the surfaces to remove the layer of ugly toning to get to more vibrant toning underneath?

 

BTW, I've seen work NCS has done to achieve the above. NCS: Professional Coin Doctors? I think not.

 

NCS ...

 

National Coin Surgeons?

 

Sorry, couldn’t help it.

 

Hays

 

edited to add a

[MikeInFL]

Ahhh. Numismatic nirvana. We have reached a state where there is no distinction between artificial and natural toning. And, unless I'm mistaken, anyone who reaches this state of nirvana can deny artificially toning a coin because artificial toning does not exist.

 

I deny natural toning. Toning was not intended for coins. Circulation and commerce was. Therefore, all toning is unintended and artificial.

 

And believe it or not, that was the serious position of more than one person I have met.

 

Were those people using MS70 to tone coins, get upgrades, and selling them for huge profits? If so, I can understand why they might take that position.

 

People who do such things are parasites of our hobby, plain and simple. To see other collectors defend such actions is unbelieveable...Mike

 

p.s. I'm still waiting for your lawyer's call.

[WinstonWare]

As much as I didn't want to get in the middle here, I would feel like I hadn't been truthful to myself or this community if I didn't say that I do agree with MikeInFl.

 

This arguement is going on in many different threads. Let me repost my position from another thread. If you read it before, it hasn't changed...

 

I can't say this any better than Anaconda did a while back across the street:

 

 

There's some really valuable bull semen out there worth $25,000 an ounce. Just because I wouldn't pay three bucks for it doesn't mean it's not worth 25K. I'd be an absolute insufficiently_thoughtful_person to criticize bull semen buyers who know what they are doing who pay fair market value for bull semen from the best bulls.

 

It's the same thing with people who don't collect toned coins. Asking them what they're worth is like asking me what I'd give for this here baggie full of Johnnie Boy's best. I don't have a use for bull semen, don't buy it, don't sell it, don't hang out with people who buy it or sell it, don't study it, don't know when it's fresh or old, good or bad, real or fake. My opinion isn't worth squat. So, unless you have some basis for an opinion, it won't be worth very much.

 

 

The market for NT coins does have to do with eye appeal but it also has to do with scarcity. Why do people pay huge premiums for a 66 over a 65 - it's only one slight bag mark? The answer, at least in part, is scarcity. The same holds true for toned coins. A 63 <> 63 if one has spectacular toning. The spectacularly toned 63 is rare, the other is common.

 

With that said, and if we assume for a minute that there is a legitimate premium applied to toned coins - The issue is that there now appears to be a relatively simple way to create a coin that is AT but appears NT to even well trained professionals. Plastic has nothing to do with it. As a corollary, it is if a new form of whizzing could go undeted by trained professionals and make a 65 a 66.

 

There is legitimate uproar about this issue.