Disposable Income

[supertooth]

Hello Folks----While reading yesterday's posts, I was stimulated to think a little about why people are paying such high prices for coins today? IGWT and others were mostly outbid at Heritage sale.And were rightly concerned about why they lost those coins that they wanted. After all, being smart coin people----they knew what those coins 'should' bring at auction----didn't they?? Since I love to tell stories, let me tell one here. Think about this. My dad was a middle class American----had a decent job---only had one kid---only had one car [either a Ford or Chevy]. He lived month to month---as most did in those days. His max salary in his life was 11,000 dollars gross. We lived in my grandparent's house---had great food. I never wanted for anything that I needed growing up. But, our disposable income---money that was 'extra'---might have totaled 10--20 dollars a month. Imagine that---in the 1960's, middle class people had about 10 or 20 bucks 'to throw away as it were' over the course of a month. A millionaire then was a person only of our wildest dreams---beyond our hopes to ever get there. When I graduated from dental school in 1973, my financial dreams were that, in my whole career that I might make a million bucks total. Well, just this week, our local Baltimore Sun Paper showed that there were 8.3 million millionaires in our country today. Imagine that----2.75% of all Americans are millionaires. In the 1960's, I am sure that number was quite small---no more than thousands. So, where is the 'disposable' income now? Is it hundreds of dollars a month? Or thousands? Or---for that top 8.3 million people---does it matter at all?? Look at the number of people in our country today who make in a month what it took my dad a year to earn. And look at the number of people who do not even make a salary. They are 'business' people whose income might be 10,000 one month but 100,000 the next. The volume of extra---'disposable' income---has gone beyond most folks wildest expectations. And, then there is the "EGO". In my dad's day, most everyone was in the mix together----including professional sports players. Today, the ego of GREED and WINNING goes far beyond what it did in the 1960's. And the available money only makes the vices become more second nature today. So----do not be surprised why you are loosing your coins to higher bidders in these auctions. The new high rise folks just have more bucks and less sense than you do. But have bigger ego problems----and refuse to loose a bid. That money will only be replaced by even more money. And, just think, there are 8.3 million of these people out there----and more coming every day. Bob [supertooth]

[Regis44]

Supertooth,

Well laid out and articulated. So, now we know there are 8.3 million oil executives as according to the general press. Those are the only ones gouging everyone (not to mention tv anchor people and senators of course).

 

But, you are right, we "all" do have more disposable income (in each income level). Not just millionaire level(s). Although I do wonder how so many families with children can keep resturantes full every day and every meal time.

 

I loose most auctions but, that is partially because I'm timid about what I "should" bid.

 

Regis

[Jazzy]

I'm not sure it's always greed or the desire to win.

 

If I had much larger resources, I would probably be bidding as high as I could to acquire the pieces that I want - not for the sake of winning in and of itself, but in order to get the coins I appreciate.

[MikeKing]

I'm beginning to find that buying from a dealer is much easier to stomach.

[rexcat]

I'm beginning to find that buying from a dealer is much easier to stomach.

 

I’d have to agree with that, a least with a dealer you know the price when you see the coin, might not be happy about it, but you know what it's going to take to bring it home.

 

There’s not that disappointment of watching, bidding, waiting, not getting that I seem to have going when trying to bid at auction lately.

[EZ_E]

I made over $100K last year but I ask myself where the heck is it? That is not squat in this day and age. I make between $40-50/hr. Sounds like alot of money doesn't it? It ain't squat! I don't even have beaucoup bills and don't blow alot of money but life just sucks it away. Granted that I took 3 months off w/o pay so I need to get the momentum going again but still I am amazed at some of the big and consistent purchases some guys make. Most have a mortgage and I don't even have that. My one daughter is a big part of my budget and a truck payment. So what is the solution? Send your kids off to Ethiopia and drive a VW bug? Life is all about priorities, I guess.

[IGWT]

. . . but I ask myself where the heck is it?

 

Even I know the answer to that one, Victor. Your after-tax dollars at work:

 

 

Life is all about priorities, I guess.

 

Absolutely. Driving a 12-year-old car without payments goes a long way toward creating enough disposable income to pursue a collection. Of course, filling up the gas tank these days . . . .

[jtryka]

I think you also must remember the impact of consumer credit on purchases. Back in the 1960s almost no one had a credit card. People bought homes and cars on credit and worked hard just to pay them off. Today, people lease cars and just turn them in for new cars and new leases every 2 or 3 years, never paying off anything. People look at their homes as an ATM machine, when the value goes up, just refi or get a home equity line of credit. Today, people have more cash available for things like coins because they are sacrificing their futures, trading instant gratification for mortgage, credit card and car payments that never end!

[Brotherman]

What's the solution?

Hummm...

I don't have any, but kids don't have to eat EVERY day do they?

 

Hays

[supertooth]

Folks----I see that I have gotten some of you to think a little. Your comments are most interesting. Hays---you must have a great sense of humor---wish there were a lot of your kind----America needs laughter these days. But let me take this thread a step further by telling another 'family' story. My grandfather told me many things---since we lived with them. He was a very wise man. In about 1958, he told me to never buy anything unless I had the money in my pocket. If I didn't, I was to save till I had enough---then, if I still wanted the item, I could go get it. But, he said, many times you will have moved on in your thinking---and that item will not seem so important to you anymore. Well, in 1973, when I graduated from dental school, I had always followed his advice. Sooo much so---that when I needed money to buy my dental equiptment, Maryland National Bank could not find my name anywhere----I had no credit references---I had never borrowed any money. So my interest rate was 11.75%. Thirty one years later---no kidding I was an honest man----I was still in debt---tired---worn out---still proud---still honest---but beat to death. Had my second child getting ready for college---no money to send her. But---I had done one thing right---had great real estate house where I was practicing. So I sold the house---retired----first time out of debt since 1973. Now, I tell this story to remind all of you that the one thing that I had forgotten when I was young----I WOULD GET OLDER AND I WOULD GET TIRED EVENTUALLY. So, yep, IGWT---I have 4 vehicles---all paid for---one has Historic tags--it is soooo old. Karen has the newest truck at college [wonder how that happened??]. Victor---Your honesty in your thread speaks the 'truth' of your profession. Jeff----your statements are absolutely "RIGHT ON". Jazzy---you 'appreciate' your coins. Some of the folks today buy them for nothing more than instant gratification of a WIN. Some do not even know what they are buying. Tomorrow, it will be something else. So---what are the answers? For me, it was going back to basics. And, I am glad that I did. For, at least for me, my grandfather was 100% correct. For me, I have drilled both my children----to not borrow money. Some day they will indeed have to 'pay it back'. And, surprisingly, they mostly have listened. For others----Guys I just do not know what will work for each of you. But this I do know. Like my gramps did for me---- forwarned is forarmed. Oh, one other thing. Don't try to outbid others for the socalled super coins. Buy the semi--rare, the nice Au coins for what you truly can afford. Be satisfied with a nice profit in 10 years time. Leave the stupid bids for the stupid rich. Thanks for listening. Bob [supertooth]

[truthteller]

"2.75% of all Americans are millionaires."

 

 

I'll give it two years, then that percentage will be cut by four.

 

The right $50 coin makes me just as happy as the right $1500 coin. It's a matter of perspective. For those who "have to" buy the $100,000.00 coin, the purchase and ownership pleasures are just as intense as those who buy the $100 coin. Just like owning a Ferrari versus a Volkswagen. In the end, each car has four wheels and gets you from point A to point B. A coin purchase makes me happy no matter the price.

 

 

TRUTH

[Hoot]

"2.75% of all Americans are millionaires."

 

 

I'll give it two years, then that percentage will be cut by four.

 

The right $50 coin makes me just as happy as the right $1500 coin. It's a matter of perspective. For those who "have to" buy the $100,000.00 coin, the purchase and ownership pleasures are just as intense as those who buy the $100 coin. Just like owning a Ferrari versus a Volkswagen. In the end, each car has four wheels and gets you from point A to point B. A coin purchase makes me happy no matter the price.

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

I also think that one reason there are so many more affluent people nowadays is sheer luck. I personally know a gal who went to work for AOL when it was just getting started. She was single, rented, and thought "what the hell, I'll buy into all the options they want to give me." In a decade she was a multi-miliionaire. Her starting salary was just over 30K. She was amply smart and able, but that had nothing to do with her becomming wealthy. She and others like her will have to watcher their as$es when their money becomes so devalued that they have lost all of their buying power and can no longer sustain the affluent lifestyles they have assumed.

 

I think that one of the most unfortunate aspects of too much money being spent on coins is that it raises the floor too high for what a collector gets in return. This causes many people to leave the hobby, not just lose a few auctions.

 

Hoot

[chinook]

think that one of the most unfortunate aspects of too much money being spent on coins is that it raises the floor too high for what a collector gets in return. This causes many people to leave the hobby, not just lose a few auctions.

 

So very true. After seeing the prices that some toned proof IHC's realized in auction, I feel my collection my be just about finished.

[Brotherman]

Folks----I see that I have gotten some of you to think a little. Your comments are most interesting. Hays---you must have a great sense of humor---wish there were a lot of your kind----America needs laughter these days. But let me take this thread a step further by telling another 'family' story. My grandfather ...

 

Thanks for the nice comments Bob. I’m glad you all can tell when I’m joking. It is sometimes hard to convey that with the written word – especially when it comes to sarcasm. These little smiley guys help out a lot though!

 

This thread reminds me of something I think I probably read here somewhere. It goes something like this:

 

There’s a new book out the absolutely GUARANTEES that you will make a small fortune in the coin business!

 

“Chapter 1 – Before you buy any coins, acquire a LARGE fortune… “

 

I think that it is probably the new collector that tries to get everything all at once. You older guys seem to understand the concept of patience. After all, if a coin like a Trade Dollar has been around for 133 years chances are they will be around when you can afford to buy one.

 

As for all these new millionaires – keep in mind that a million today ISN’T the same as a million back in the 1960s! My mother and father bought their first house for $12,500 in 1958. My sister and I just sold it for $125,000. Sounds like we made a nice profit, unless you are trying to buy a comparable starter home – they all cost $125,000.

 

Hays

[Bruceswar]

As for all these new millionaires – keep in mind that a million today ISN’T the same as a million back in the 1960s! My mother and father bought their first house for $12,500 in 1958. My sister and I just sold it for $125,000. Sounds like we made a nice profit, unless you are trying to buy a comparable starter home – they all cost $125,000.

 

Hays

 

 

Not in Texas

[Brotherman]

As for all these new millionaires – keep in mind that a million today ISN’T the same as a million back in the 1960s! My mother and father bought their first house for $12,500 in 1958. My sister and I just sold it for $125,000. Sounds like we made a nice profit, unless you are trying to buy a comparable starter home – they all cost $125,000.

 

Hays

 

 

Not in Texas

 

More?

[cpm9ball]

As for all these new millionaires – keep in mind that a million today ISN’T the same as a million back in the 1960s! My mother and father bought their first house for $12,500 in 1958. My sister and I just sold it for $125,000. Sounds like we made a nice profit, unless you are trying to buy a comparable starter home – they all cost $125,000.

 

Hays

 

 

Not in Texas

 

According to my cousin, who is a real estate broker in Dallas/Ft. Worth, there are no building codes for residential housing in Texas.

 

Chris

[Bruceswar]

As for all these new millionaires – keep in mind that a million today ISN’T the same as a million back in the 1960s! My mother and father bought their first house for $12,500 in 1958. My sister and I just sold it for $125,000. Sounds like we made a nice profit, unless you are trying to buy a comparable starter home – they all cost $125,000.

 

Hays

 

 

Not in Texas

 

According to my cousin, who is a real estate broker in Dallas/Ft. Worth, there are no building codes for residential housing in Texas.

 

Chris

 

There is just they are not enforced that well from what I have seen around here...

[Bruceswar]

As for all these new millionaires – keep in mind that a million today ISN’T the same as a million back in the 1960s! My mother and father bought their first house for $12,500 in 1958. My sister and I just sold it for $125,000. Sounds like we made a nice profit, unless you are trying to buy a comparable starter home – they all cost $125,000.

 

Hays

 

 

Not in Texas

 

More?

 

Way Less..... Some houses in Texas can be had for $50,000 and a decent house for $80,000 and a 2 story for a bit over $100,000 if you know where to look

[EZ_E]

A recent study listed Texas as one of the few places where housing isn't overvalued and caught in the housing bubble.

 

I think one of the reason there are so many millionaires today is because of the employment packages that used to be offered by corporations. As mentioned, those who started out in forming businesses such as Walmart, Apple, microsoft, etc and purchased stock as an employee are now millionaires. Remember when dedication to a company meant something: a retirement package, perks, stocks, vacation, etc. Most of this no longer exists. In this day and age, dedication to a certain company means nothing. It will actually cost you! I was talking to an ultrasound tech the other day at the hospital I am currently working at and just two years ago, she was still making $14/hr after 25+ years at the same place. This was ridiculous. The market for an u/s tech was min of $25/hr then and even more so now. I faced the same problem in the early '90's when I entered the x-ray field. Dedication and loyalty is punished and not rewarded. I am so fortunately that my profession is not locked into a specific locale or place.

 

So, in this day and age, in order to get ahead one must certainly minimize debt and invest in real estate or quality coins and WAIT. A profit cannot necessarily be made in just a year or two. One should look 10-20 ahead and be patient and wait for the investment to grow. I just turned 40 and I will be lucky to have social security benefits when I retire, have no corporate or military retirement so I must start preparing now. Who knows, maybe I will be a millionaire someday but that is not my goal. My goal is security in the today and in the tomorrow and I continue to work towards this goal.

[EZ_E]

. . . but I ask myself where the heck is it?

 

Even I know the answer to that one, Victor. Your after-tax dollars at work:

 

 

 

 

What's the solution?

Hummm...

I don't have any, but kids don't have to eat EVERY day do they?

 

 

Hays

 

[Brotherman]

I guess I was trying to point out that in the past we have used the “million” dollar mark to describe someone of great wealth. We still use that number today just because it is an easy way to get that point across. The truth is though that a million bucks today doesn’t have near the buying power of a million bucks in the 1960s. The fact that there are more people today that have reached that million-dollar mark is probably due to the fact that it is easier to reach – not to mention there are more people in the US today than there were in the 60s.

 

I’m not sure what difference in “real money” there is between 1960 and 2006. You might need to have 10 or 12 million today to equal the buying power of a million in 1960. It would be interesting to see how many people today were “Twelvemillaires”

 

Hays

[Regis44]

Quote: "It would be interesting to see how many people today were “Twelvemillaires” "

 

Interesting term "twelvemillionaires". My father retired as a steelworker in early 60's and had been making around $10K. I retired in 2000 and my wife & I had combined income of about $125K. "Family" income rose by 12 fold in our case.

[Brotherman]

Quote: "It would be interesting to see how many people today were “Twelvemillaires” "

 

Interesting term "twelvemillionaires". My father retired as a steelworker in early 60's and had been making around $10K. I retired in 2000 and my wife & I had combined income of about $125K. "Family" income rose by 12 fold in our case.

 

"twelvemillionaires" makes mores sense than my “Twelvemillaires”...I was tryin' to be fancy

 

Hays

[ldhair]

It would be interesting to see where these 8.3 million made their wealth. I would guess real estate would be at the top of the list.

[supertooth]

Are You Guys Still Thinking?? Let me add some more thoughts on how it has changed in my lifetime. In the Summer of 1965, I was 18 years old---just graduated from a private high school. I had known that I wanted to be a dentist since I was 13 years old. My dad knew that I was going to college and that "I" was doing what was necessary to get accepted. One day he asked me where I was going. Long story short---I asked how much financial help that I could expect. My dad stuck out his hand to shake mine and said, "Good Luck". In those next 8 years, I spent a total of 20,000 dollars to get through college and dental school. I had all of it paid except for 3,000 in student loans. Remember that I was an only child---and I graduated in 1973. Now, travel to when my son, David, entered college. He had no money---yes, he worked during the Summers. But, it cost ME that 20,000 the very first year that he was in college. The year was 1993. Now, let us travel to 2004---when my daughter entered college. You know these 18 year old children consider themselves adults---in all but one thing---paying the bills. So, Karen [a superior and 'special' child]---smarter than I ever was---is telling me that, by law, she does not have to send me her grades. She was really just being smart with me. I had had that same conversation with an administrator back when David was in school. It goes something like this----whose name is on the checks---mine----who is paying---me---I want to see those grades in writing directly from the school---if I do not get them----nobody gets any money. Geeeee---that was pretty simple! However, in our world of today, after my Karen got her say, she actually had to sign a form for the college---in order for me to receive a copy of her grades. Now, this child is on the Dean's list---so it is of little concern. But, the schools today are more interested in protecting the kid's civil rights than they are at respecting where the money is coming from. So---disposable money for coins---boy was that a laugh for me---for many, many years. But, if you want your kids to have a chance in life---you must help them. My daughter makes excellent money in the Summers[ 6,000--8,000]. That money is guarded by her to cover her 'other' college expenses during the year. It is amazing what it costs today. Victor is right-----'where does it all go?' Yet, we still see that top 2--5% of our folks having enough left over to pay 'crazy' money for a coin. How times have changed!!! And, I will add this. Got to leave Bob out of that 12 millionaire thing. Bob [supertooth]

[Brotherman]

Are You Guys Still Thinking??...

 

Bob, your posts usually do that to people.

 

Your story about your daughter’s “by law…’ statement is funny because it’s so true. It is also a little sad testament about our society. It’s sad because in our “lawsuit-happy” society a college must cover their butts so as not to tread on a student’s rights.

 

My dad was a college professor. I graduated from the school where he taught (he was my advisor!). During my college career my father caught two students blatantly cheating on a final exam. My father flunked them both and called on the Dean to expel them. Needless to say, the Dean as well as the rest of the board was afraid the school would be sued and did nothing. That would have worked out much differently in 1965!

 

Hays

[Brotherman]

Bob, you of course understood that I meant the university’s response was the sad testament – not your daughter! WHEW! I just don’t want to get misunderstood here.

 

Hays

[EZ_E]

Your story about your daughter’s “by law…’ statement is funny because it’s so true. It is also a little sad testament about our society. It’s sad because in our “lawsuit-happy” society a college must cover their butts so as not to tread on a student’s rights.

 

On a related note:

 

I am now working in NM, 30 miles from the Mexican border. A 15 yr old kid that lives across the border was brought in tonight after killing his teenaged girlfriend and then shooting hisself in the head. This is not a US citizen but if this hospital refused to treat him (even though it will never be reimbursed), they face the possibility/probability of being sued.

 

This goes beyond logic. I bet you that that wouldn't apply to a US citizen near the Canadian border.

[Hoot]

This goes beyond logic. I bet you that that wouldn't apply to a US citizen near the Canadian border.

 

Actually, the Canadians are quite excellent about providing health care for U.S. citizens who have been injured in or near Canada at the border. When I was a Park Ranger in Glacier National Park, any injured persons in the northern part of the park were taken to hospitals in Cardston, Alberta - including my daughter. I don't know if they are the least bit afraid of lawsuit, but they sure do have a decent medical system.

 

Hoot