Provenance

[EVillageProwler]

Hi,

 

I am considering getting provenance notations placed on the inserts of several of my coins. In the process of thinking through this, I've come to the realization that I have mixed opinions on what I think I would like to see for myself.

 

1. Out of respect, I think I would only like to apply the provenance on the insert if the previous owner is deceased. But, I know of many cases where the person is still alive (e.g., Whitney, Bass?).

 

2. I would like to differentiate between researchers and serious collectors. I would say that Bass, Whitney, Overton, Vermeule, etc., are researchers. Hayes, Eliasberg, Pittman, Benson, etc., are serious collectors. I prefer to have the provenance of the researchers applied to my insert, yet there are obviously many Carter, Hayes, Eliasberg, etc., pedigrees on inserts today.

 

3. I can arbitrarily allow coins from famous collectors if the coin is ``special'' enough. But, I'd have to define the ``special'' threshold. And, I already own a Byron Reed pedigreed non-descript low grade proof Seated quarter.

 

4. I can say that collector's coins are only to have their pedigree applied to the insert if the coin is part of the collector's specialization. But, there are loopholes here as well. Bass is renowned for his patterns and his gold. But, his 1794 dollar (NGC MS61) is pedigreed. I own a Hain Family R.5 bust dollar in VF. The Hain Family collection is renowned for Mass. silvers. Is my Hain dollar worthy of the pedigree? And, what of those collectors with large, generalized collections?

 

I think it is important to keep track of your coins. And, having their history partially on the insert helps with the record-keeping. But, at some point, we all have to ask ourselves when are we going too far?

 

Thoughts?

 

EVP

 

[keithdagen]

Interesting ideas.

 

One thing you mention on collectors' pedigrees strikes me. Eliasberg is known for having one of everything, and when his collections was broken up, many original rolls of 1883 No Cent nickels were present. Today, many of these have been slabbed and pedigreed, making an Eliasberg pedigree coin easy to find. But one has to wonder, did he put the rolls together, or buy them intact?

 

What are the odds, in this case, that Eliasberg ever saw the actual coin that bears his stamp?

[Oldtrader3]

I certainly can not answer that question for you. It is a pretty personal decision. If it were me, I would stick to significant or important rarities to be labelled with my name. As for deciding which coins to label, versus earlier Provenance, I (personally) would selectively leave rarities that are noted by prior publication, as being important, provenance specimens from these collections alone.

 

That puts you in the position of deciding, for instance which Eliasberg coins should be left alone, because they are noted specimens of his collection versus which coins are more common specimens that can be overwritten (more common in this context, meaning less famous). This is a tough business and I do not envy your having to make these choices. By the way, Harry W. Bass Jr. is deceased.

 

Good luck with your task at hand.

[EVillageProwler]

Thanks, guys, for the responses. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do, but I guess I'll make a gameday decision.

 

Certainly, I will not want a living person's name on my coin's slab. That priviledge is reserved solely for me.

 

If I ever get a truly historic coin, or a truly rare or special coin, then I will probably do what I can regarding its provenance. I feel that it is those coins that numismatists would be most interested in tracking.

 

I'll discuss the matter with my friends regarding specific coins.

 

EVP

 

[Coinosaurus]

Prowler-

 

You raise some interesting ideas. Should we call something a Clapp coin, a Clapp-Eliasberg coin, or an Eliasberg coin? All three would be arguably valid for the many Eliasberg coins that came from the Clapp collection.

 

It seems to me that auction cataloguers tend to use the attribution that imparts the most marketability to a coin (I guess this should be no great surprise), and this tends to be the last "prominent" collection that the coin was in.

 

I would have no problem attributing something to a living collector. If someone put together a beautiful collection and there was a nicely researched catalog commemorating that effort, then why not recognize the collector?

 

 

[EVillageProwler]

I would have no problem attributing something to a living collector. If someone put together a beautiful collection and there was a nicely researched catalog commemorating that effort, then why not recognize the collector?

 

Let me be a brat a bit...

 

What do you think of the Legend Collection of ...

 

There's been no nicely researched catalog of that collection (yet). I'm not objecting to TDN's pedigreeing his collection with his appellation on the insert. In fact, I think using an appellation is better than using his own name.

 

Someday, maybe, I may name my collection (not my real name nor EVP!). Or, maybe not. Probably not.

 

EVP

 

[keithdagen]

What do you think of the Legend Collection of ...

 

 

Guess TradeDollarNut's Collection wouldn't fit.

 

I'm not a big fan of sets pedigreed in a dealer's name, but the tribute is fitting, and it was TDN's choice. I guess it was a way to remain relatively anonymous. There is no question that the collection is probably the greatest grouping of Trade Dollars and will not be surpassed in our lifetime.

[Tradedollarnut]

Nah - it's not named after Legend Numismatics, but rather my own company - Legend Capital Management Co.

 

I just liked the sound of it - the Legend Collection of United States Trade Dollars - rolls off the tongue nicely!

 

Hello to all from the Windy City!

[keithdagen]

So it's like corporate advertising right? Wonder how that will factor into EVP's equation.

[Coinosaurus]

Prowler-

 

You are asking a very tricky question! We are getting into a really gray area here. The issue is whether or not commercial firms should be promoted on 3rd party holders. The logical extension of this is some goofy situation where the TV guys claim that their coins are better than the other guys because they are "[grading service name] [coin show name]" coins and not just plain vanilla "[grading service name]" coins, and then implying that the service is endorsing some sort of extra imprimatur for their product. This gets messy in a hurry

 

[michael]