Ebay Hypothetical !!!

[TerrapinWill]

Let me first say I understand the concepts of "caveat emptour" and morality. Second, let me say that I and not perfect and do not profess to be. I too have likely been in this same situation either as a buyer or seller.

 

Lastly, let me pose another hypothetical scenario involving money, only this time bills instead of coins.

 

You go into a store and purchase $9.89 worth of products. You are having a conversation with the next person in line when the cashier tells you what you owe. As you are still talking you reach into your wallet and pull out a

$100 bill and hand it to the cashier. Should the cashier give you $0.11 and keep the $90 tip or give you $90.11 in change?

 

Reverse the situation. Say the cashier is talking when you hand over a $10 bill. The cashier gives you $90.11 in change instead of $0.11. Do you keep the extra $90 or state the error to the cashier?

 

While I hope everyone would do the morally right thing, would such a scenario not also apply to a seller taking $100 for a $10 coin just because the buyer was not knowledgeable about that coin? Should you accept a $100 coin when you only paid $10 for it and knew it while bidding? While knowledge is power, does the Bible not tell us that ill-gotten gains will haunt us at a later date!

 

Either way, do we not have a moral obligation, regardless of the situation to do the right thing? As the Golden Rule says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"!

 

Your analogy is a poor one. I guess all the cherrypickers have moral obligation to tell sellers what the coins they are buying are actually worth.

 

Most people, both here and at PCGS boards seem to thing that cherrypicking is OK. Please explain how "cherrypicking" is anymore ethical. It's still taking advantage of someone, even if they are getting their asking price. Please, flame away, I need a good laugh

[TomB]

I believe this is actually a thorny situation that has many more shades of grey than of black or white. It is also one that I do not believe you should have taken as much pure heat from, as some have given you, without any acknowledgement that each situation is different and no analogy that I can think of is perfect.

 

If I understand correctly, you noticed a coin on ebay that was misdescribed and you asked if it were the coin that would be delivered. In this case you did not actually tell the seller of the error, but this should have raised a warning flag with the seller to check the auction. Now you have received the coin and it is worth quite a bit more than your winning bid.

 

This and the PCGS boards are an odd place sometimes as you might have easily posed the title as a boast of the rip you received on ebay and many would likely have applauded you. Of course, if you bought it from a newbie at a show many would have attacked. I guess it depends on the level of knowledge we can assume that the seller had in each case. Let me add that I strongly believe in personal responsibility for one's actions. That pertains to both buying and selling on ebay and other venues as well as other aspects of life. I also believe in treating others as you would like to be treated. I think these two things go well together.

 

Here are two real-world ebay cases that I have been involved with, the first as the seller and the second as the buyer.

 

About seven years ago I sold a slightly better date Morgan dollar and described it as MS63. My pictures were quite clear and accurate and the coin sold for about $50. Upon packaging the coin, at the post office, I noticed a scratch on the obverse that I had not captured in my image. In my opinion, the scratch lowered the grade to MS61. Of course, the buyer had no idea the scratch was there since the image didn't show it and the buyer might not have ever noticed it. I decided to write two checks to the buyer, one for $5 and the other for $30. I also wrote a short note while at the post office and included the note with the coin and checks. The note said that I had inadvertantly misrepresented the coin and that I believe it was truly worth $15, so if the buyer wanted to keep the coin to please cash the two checks for $5 and $30. However, if the buyer were unhappy with the coin I asked him to send the coin back, along with the $30 check, but to cash the $5 check to cover his shipping and inconvenience. The buyer kept the coin, cashed the checks and was happy.

 

The second case involved a slabbed Washington quarter that had the wrong imaged attached to it in the auction. I even wrote a thread about the coin on the PCGS boards and here is the link from 2002. In brief, I emailed the seller not once, but twice to let him specifically know of his error and that he would get no action on the coin because of the error. The seller never replied. Upon the completion of the auction I again emailed the seller, though this is not listed in my original thread, and attached an image of the correct coin and asked if this were the coin in question. Again, the seller never responded. I ended up getting the correct coin, not the one that was attached to the auction image, and the coin is worth substantially more than the $42 (including shipping) that I paid. Here is an underlit image of the obverse of that coin-

 

So, do I think you are a horrible person for this auction? No. Do I think you did all you could have done to communicate your questions to the seller? No. Do I think it's even my business to pass judgement on you for this chain of events? No. You have to do what's right for you and what you believe is the best thing to do in each individual case.

[TerrapinWill]

I believe this is actually a thorny situation that has many more shades of grey than of black or white. It is also one that I do not believe you should have taken as much pure heat from, as some have given you, without any acknowledgement that each situation is different and no analogy that I can think of is perfect.

 

If I understand correctly, you noticed a coin on ebay that was misdescribed and you asked if it were the coin that would be delivered. In this case you did not actually tell the seller of the error, but this should have raised a warning flag with the seller to check the auction. Now you have received the coin and it is worth quite a bit more than your winning bid.

 

This and the PCGS boards are an odd place sometimes as you might have easily posed the title as a boast of the rip you received on ebay and many would likely have applauded you. Of course, if you bought it from a newbie at a show many would have attacked. I guess it depends on the level of knowledge we can assume that the seller had in each case. Let me add that I strongly believe in personal responsibility for one's actions. That pertains to both buying and selling on ebay and other venues as well as other aspects of life. I also believe in treating others as you would like to be treated. I think these two things go well together.

 

Here are two real-world ebay cases that I have been involved with, the first as the seller and the second as the buyer.

 

About seven years ago I sold a slightly better date Morgan dollar and described it as MS63. My pictures were quite clear and accurate and the coin sold for about $50. Upon packaging the coin, at the post office, I noticed a scratch on the obverse that I had not captured in my image. In my opinion, the scratch lowered the grade to MS61. Of course, the buyer had no idea the scratch was there since the image didn't show it and the buyer might not have ever noticed it. I decided to write two checks to the buyer, one for $5 and the other for $30. I also wrote a short note while at the post office and included the note with the coin and checks. The note said that I had inadvertantly misrepresented the coin and that I believe it was truly worth $15, so if the buyer wanted to keep the coin to please cash the two checks for $5 and $30. However, if the buyer were unhappy with the coin I asked him to send the coin back, along with the $30 check, but to cash the $5 check to cover his shipping and inconvenience. The buyer kept the coin, cashed the checks and was happy.

 

The second case involved a slabbed Washington quarter that had the wrong imaged attached to it in the auction. I even wrote a thread about the coin on the PCGS boards and here is the link from 2002. In brief, I emailed the seller not once, but twice to let him specifically know of his error and that he would get no action on the coin because of the error. The seller never replied. Upon the completion of the auction I again emailed the seller, though this is not listed in my original thread, and attached an image of the correct coin and asked if this were the coin in question. Again, the seller never responded. I ended up getting the correct coin, not the one that was attached to the auction image, and the coin is worth substantially more than the $42 (including shipping) that I paid. Here is an underlit image of the obverse of that coin-

 

So, do I think you are a horrible person for this auction? No. Do I think you did all you could have done to communicate your questions to the seller? No. Do I think it's even my business to pass judgement on you for this chain of events? No. You have to do what's right for you and what you believe is the best thing to do in each individual case.

 

In response to your post....In the situation I was involved with, the coin pictured was not the coin described. the seller was not selling any other similar items. I asked if the coin pictured was the coin I would recieve. he replied...and said yes. When I rec'd the coin, I was astonished that it actually was the coin pictured, worth many times more than the title of the auctions and the description (date different, MM same). I sent another email that basically said, the coin I recieved was not the coin described. So in essence, I had told him over two emails that the coin described and the coin pictured were not the same. He left me positive feedback a few days later. I waited about six weeks, figuring he might still contact me. When that much time passed, I sold the coin.

[cpm9ball]

Let me first say I understand the concepts of "caveat emptour" and morality. Second, let me say that I and not perfect and do not profess to be. I too have likely been in this same situation either as a buyer or seller.

 

Lastly, let me pose another hypothetical scenario involving money, only this time bills instead of coins.

 

You go into a store and purchase $9.89 worth of products. You are having a conversation with the next person in line when the cashier tells you what you owe. As you are still talking you reach into your wallet and pull out a

$100 bill and hand it to the cashier. Should the cashier give you $0.11 and keep the $90 tip or give you $90.11 in change?

 

It doesn't matter if you gave her $10 or $10,000, the cashier is OBLIGATED to give you the correct change.

 

Reverse the situation. Say the cashier is talking when you hand over a $10 bill. The cashier gives you $90.11 in change instead of $0.11. Do you keep the extra $90 or state the error to the cashier?

 

You would be morally obligated to apprise the cashier of the error. Let's put it another way. Suppose I were in the checkout line with my best friend and the clerk made change for a $100 instead of a $10. I would bring it to my friend's attention so as not to cause any embarassment, but if my friend said, "Too bad, it's their loss and my gain!", I don't think I would care to have a friend like that.

 

Both of these scenarios have nothing to do with buying and selling coins for a premium over face value. Here is a joke that may or may not shed some light on the concept of value. It is an ethnic joke, but it is not intended to offend anyone.

 

A Polish couple have always dreamed of coming to America to make their fortune, for, America is the land of milk and honey. One day, they finally get up the nerve to make the trip and leave their homeland behind. On the voyage over the wife begins to worry about how they will begin to make their fortune. The husband reassures her that it will be easy. It will be just like in the movies. You will be the prostitute and I will be your pimp. They finally get settled in New York City and the wife dutifully sets out for her first day of "work". She has put on her best clothes and she is a knock-out. At the end of the day, she comes through the apartment door and her husband jumps from the couch in startling surprise for she is a mess. Her clothes are soiled and ragged and her makeup is smeared. When the husband asked what happened, she told him that she had a very busy day "servicing" 200 customers. The husband jumped for joy and exclaimed, "We are going to be rich beyond belief!" He told her that because he was the pimp, she must give him all of the money. So she handed him the $20.

 

While I hope everyone would do the morally right thing, would such a scenario not also apply to a seller taking $100 for a $10 coin just because the buyer was not knowledgeable about that coin? Should you accept a $100 coin when you only paid $10 for it and knew it while bidding? While knowledge is power, does the Bible not tell us that ill-gotten gains will haunt us at a later date!

 

Either way, do we not have a moral obligation, regardless of the situation to do the right thing? As the Golden Rule says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"!

 

Chris

[TerrapinWill]

Still waiting for responses from the "cherrypicking is ethical" crowd. i am just dying to have explained why ripping someone because you know more than they do is any different than ripping someone because of carelessness.

[chinook]

WIll,

 

If I were you I would sleep peacefully at night.

[vumc409]

Yes, the analogy raised was a poor one in terms of direct relevance to your initial question. No, it was not a poor one to get across the concept of MORALITY, which was the reason for it. Morality should be something we practice on a daily basis regardless of what our current task is. That's the "punch line" if you will. My earlier post was not meant as a judgement on anyone, merely a lesson on morality in general.

 

I never said anything about "cherrypicking". But since you brought it up I will say this. I do not take part in it because I try to deal fairly in everything I do. I am not always successful, but I try.

 

Quite frankly, I don't take part in it for this reason also. I am not in the coin business to make one red cent. I do it for the "hunt", for the pure pleasure of collecting my coins. Sure, I have likely paid more for some coins than they are worth and I am sure I have gotten coins for less than what they are worth. I honestly don't keep track of it. The only thing I do is look at the price guide from across the street to get a ballpark idea of what the coin I'm bidding on is worth.

 

I know what is morally and religiouly right and wrong for me. Everyone has to know these things for themselves.

 

Matthew 7:1, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." - NIV

[IGWT]

I don't think that I can explain it any better than Skippy did in this thread

 

The basic point is the same. If the mistake is a clerical error that anybody with half a brain could spot, then I think you point it out. When checkers in stores give me wrong change, I correct it (either direction). Everybody makes stupid mistakes from time to time, and I think it's only common courtesy not to take advantage when that happens. After all, the next time YOU make a stupid mistake do you want to be taken advantage of?

 

If you are using specialized knowledge that took you considerable study to acquire, and it enables you to differentiate a special item from a common item, then I think you are entitled to use that knowledge to your advantage when dealing with another professional in the field. A coin dealer is a presumed professional who knows how to take care of himself, and I can pretty well guarantee that he is making a profit on that item he sells you.