Just another stupid opinion about Peacegate!!!

[TerrapinWill]

this entire thing has gotten me to thinking. and I want to put forth my understanding an dthen ask a question.

 

1. The coin that was slabbed as MS66* and deemed NT by NGC is alost certainly AT, based on some research by Braddick.

2. Someone bought the coins and brought it to NGC, whose label made it worth somehwere in the area of $10K.

3. A dealer very familiar with toned coins bought the coin somehwere in that areea and attempted to sell it at a profit.

 

Assuming all the above to be true, isnt this really a case of greed getting the best of someone. I mean shouldnt the buyer of the coin, the one who paid $10K for it, still be happy with it. didnt he/se buy it because of it's being a monster, based on their knowledge? Or did they buy a piece of plastic with someone else's opinion on it? I thought about htis overnight, and if you ask me the person who paid 10K for this coin in a piece of plastic with the intent of selling it for a profit should be SOL. NGC should stand by their opinion.

 

Thoughts?

[EZ_E]

I mean shouldnt the buyer of the coin, the one who paid $10K for it, still be happy with it. didnt he/se buy it because of it's being a monster, based on their knowledge

 

I guaran-darn-tee you that if the buyer knew that the same coin sold for $55 on e-bay, he would be steaming and having buyer's remorse.

[TerrapinWill]

I mean shouldnt the buyer of the coin, the one who paid $10K for it, still be happy with it. didnt he/se buy it because of it's being a monster, based on their knowledge

 

I guaran-darn-tee you that if the buyer knew that the same coin sold for $55 on e-bay, he would be steaming and having buyer's remorse.

 

I guess what am asking is, shouldnt this dealer/seller (who supposedly specializes in toned coins) avoid the coin regardless of what the tag says? i think the idea of profit clouded judgment here.

 

Another question, which was asked across the street.....What does NGC owe the current owner of this coin? based on the objective evidence, this coin is obviously AT......should NGC buy it back or stand by their opinion?

[EZ_E]

I guess what am asking is, shouldnt this dealer/seller (who supposedly specializes in toned coins) avoid the coin regardless of what the tag says? i think the idea of profit clouded judgment here.

 

I think that it was merely a business decision, albeit, unethical.

 

Another question, which was asked across the street.....What does NGC owe the current owner of this coin? based on the objective evidence, this coin is obviously AT......should NGC buy it back or stand by their opinion?

 

No, NGC should be liable for the market value of the coin based upon its grade alone with no toning premium. But, since they are the "professionals", they should back their original judgement regardless if it was wrong in the first place. O/W, a whole can of worms could be opened. Right or wrong, this is the real world that is far from perfect.

[CTcollector]

Terrapin Will - your first question is a little easier to answer then your second one.

 

In my opinion, a dealer who puts themselves out there as a premier buyer/seller of toned coins should avoid a coin like that no matter what the holder says or potential profit may be. What the motivation is behind the sellers purchase of that coin is anyone's guess - maybe profit; maybe a history of previous success in similar situations, or maybe just plain incompetence. It doesn't matter which as the seller is just a "pass through" to a collector. Ultimately, the collector is the one stuck with the damaged goods and the dealers lack of judgement/expertise.

 

Regarding the second question; IF NGC were to admit a mistake and take the coin off the market, I don' think the compensation would be anywhere near the asking price of the seller. $14k is just not a reasonable price for a ms-66 Peace $, monster toned or not. Maybe some one might have been brave enough to purchase the coin at or near that price, but I don't think that would be indicative of true market value. I don't have an answer on what, if any, the compensation amount might be from NGC to the seller. However, I don't think it will be anywhere near the speculative amount the seller had it listed for.

[Jazzy]

The problem is that recent big-name auctions have driven the demand for toned coins way up. I have to admit that I'm definitely willing to pay a premium for a nice NT coin - but not that kind of premium.

 

I'm sure the buyer will eventually recoup his investment (in about 5 generations.)

[IGWT]

Ultimately, the collector is the one stuck with the damaged goods and the dealers lack of judgement/expertise.

 

Not in this case. The dealer must live with his own lack of judgment/expertise. Imagine that.

[kryptonitecomics]

A dealer that specialize in Toned coins doesn't have to be an expert in grading or detecting AT if he is purchasing certified material. Should he or she be......I would say infatically yes....but I don't believe that's the case here. I know Adrian and Brandon......while they may have had there hands on a lot of nice toners lately....I don't think either of them would clasify themselves as an expert on toning.

 

I collect nothing but toners....and I would say I am fair from an expert but I have done very well buying raw toners since I know how coins tone.....what toned coins from different series should look like, storage methods commonly used for different denominations.......and with all that said I thought the Peace dollar was NT when Originally posted. It does look considerably different in Brandon's images vs the original Ebay which may have something to do with it.....but since I never had the coin in hand I was left to Judge off of the images posted like everyone else.

 

As for the coin being worth $14,000 dollars......if it's a legitimate MS66 and if it's NT....then in the current market it might be? Can't tell since it didn't sell for $14,000 but Adrian said he had offers of over $10,000 so.....if NT.....it would be an expensive coin. It doesn't matter if you or I would not be willing to shell out that kind of dough....I believe there are several Toned coin collectors with the finances and motivation to add a monster Rainbow Peace dollar to their holdings.

 

Ultimately I feel that if the coin is deemed to be AT....which I am not sure it will be....then I think NGC owes the buyer (Anaconda) his full purchase price. I think to suggest that the coin is only worth grey sheet ask or trends when we need to consider FMV is poppycock An MS66 Peace dollar with monster toning is worth a heck of a lot more that $800 bucks and there certainly is sales history to back that up on not only Morgan's but Peace Dollars as well.

[EZ_E]

Ultimately I feel that if the coin is deemed to be AT....which I am not sure it will be....then I think NGC owes the buyer (Anaconda) his full purchase price. I think to suggest that the coin is only worth grey sheet ask or trends when we need to consider FMV is poppycock An MS66 Peace dollar with monster toning is worth a heck of a lot more that $800 bucks and there certainly is sales history to back that up on not only Morgan's but Peace Dollars as well.

 

Does that mean if an individual pays unreasonable money for a coin on e-bay that NGC should be held accountable at that level?

 

Perhaps an item is worth overmarket value to that individual if he has the finances? It's an individual's call. Does that set the market? No. Because someone is willing to pay multiples of bid for toning does that set a concrete price that NGC should be accountable to? No.

[kryptonitecomics]

You gave 1 example of a sale....market value is determined by multiple sales for same or similar items so if you don't purchase Monster toned coins then you may not have a sense of the actual Fair market value for a coin like the Peace dollar.

 

The fact that you or other feels like it's stupid, crazy, sheer lunacy to pay XXX times grey sheet for a rainbow colored coin does not change the fact that their are establish FMV for such coins. I think thats the part folks don't get......you opinions have no barring on what constitues FMV....the market and historical sales of coins does and in that arena....this coin has a value well above what it's white counterpart would have.

[EZ_E]

So, we go full circle to Michael's mantra:

 

"The plastic should not set a value multiples of the raw coin's value"

 

This Peace Dollar debacle is in that vain. Since NT vs AT is not a cut and dry issue, the slab condoned it as NT which increased its value from $55 to $10K+. Does this sound reasonable? Certainly not to me.

 

I certainly appreciate a well toned, original coin (I have many of them which I will soon share) but I do not condone a 2000% increase in value for the color. I believe that toned coins will always be appreciated but that this current market is a fad that will not stand the test of time. This is my strong conviction and I make no apologies for it, with all humbleness.

[CTcollector]

You gave 1 example of a sale....market value is determined by multiple sales for same or similar items so if you don't purchase Monster toned coins then you may not have a sense of the actual Fair market value for a coin like the Peace dollar.

 

The fact that you or other feels like it's stupid, crazy, sheer lunacy to pay XXX times grey sheet for a rainbow colored coin does not change the fact that their are establish FMV for such coins. I think thats the part folks don't get......you opinions have no barring on what constitues FMV....the market and historical sales of coins does and in that arena....this coin has a value well above what it's white counterpart would have.

 

Those are fair points - but I am familiar with premiums for color, originality, etc....and pay up for them myself. However, I still think $14k for a common date Peace $ in NGC 66 even with legitimate originality and monster color is speculative. Where would this level be historically supported ? Seriously, I am not being smart - I would like to know if and where it exists. A dealer friend and I were discussing the scandal earlier today and what actual FMV would be on a legitimately monster toned common date Peace $ in 66 and we placed it at around $5k.

[kryptonitecomics]

 

Those are fair points - but I am familiar with premiums for color, originality, etc....and pay up for them myself. However, I still think $14k for a common date Peace $ in NGC 66 even with legitimate originality and monster color is speculative. Where would this level be historically supported ? Seriously, I am not being smart - I would like to know if and where it exists. A dealer friend and I were discussing the scandal earlier today and what actual FMV would be on a legitimately monster toned common date Peace $ in 66 and we placed it at around $5k.

 

$5k.....not in this market and not after the BC coins were auctioned off and a common date 1886 in MS65 sold for around $14,000 in a private sale and sold for around $12,000 in the actual auction.

 

Yes the $14,000k is speculative......but you are fooling yourself if you don't think there were several buyers out there that would shell out that kind of dough for an exceptional Peace dollar. Rainbow Toning on Peace dollars is exceptionally rare, certainly a lot rarer than Rainbow toning on a Morgan so that alone would drive a monster 66 well above your $5k mark even if we are only talking about a small market with only a handful of people willing to pay that type of premium. Most of the larger deals relating to toned coins are private sales and not auctions.....being a member of the TCCS has shown me that to be true and has also allowed me a behind the scenes look at the Toned coin market.

 

Believe me if you aren't eating, breathing, and sleeping the toned coined market like some of us are.......you will think I am absolutely certifyable........which I may be....but I know what I know and it's going to my grave with me just like Hoffa!!!!

[kryptonitecomics]

So, we go full circle to Michael's mantra:

 

"The plastic should not set a value multiples of the raw coin's value"

 

This Peace Dollar debacle is in that vain. Since NT vs AT is not a cut and dry issue, the slab condoned it as NT which increased its value from $55 to $10K+. Does this sound reasonable? Certainly not to me.

 

I certainly appreciate a well toned, original coin (I have many of them which I will soon share) but I do not condone a 2000% increase in value for the color. I believe that toned coins will always be appreciated but that this current market is a fad that will not stand the test of time. This is my strong conviction and I make no apologies for it, with all humbleness.

 

I personally don't think the plastic raised the value from $55 to $14000K.......to me the coin wasn't worth anything near $14,000k.....but I know to some it would be. In most instances.....the toned coin market is less suseptable to the plastic setting the price then in the white coin market. Take a PCGS PR70 ASE out of it's holder and you probably have a $30 coin vs the $500 you could get for it while still in the holder.

 

Take a $300 rainbow Battle Creek toner in a 63* Holder out of the plastic and you have a pretty good chance of selling it raw for almost the same amount. When I buy toned coins.....I buy the color with little to no regard for the grade. So when I pay $50 for a 1957-D Lincoln Cent in MS63......I am paying for the color and not the grade. If I buy a white 1881-S Morgan in MS66 and pay $400 bucks...I am buying the grade and the subsequent grade guarantee on the holder. If that coin is cracked out......or if the coin resides in a subpar TPG holder.....it is worth far less......even though it's the same coin.

[John Martinez]

What makes FMV is what someone recently paid for a like item. Even in real estate, you home's FMV is what others like it recently sold for. That said, FMV also takes into account anomolies, such as in real estate, a foreclosed home.

 

About the Grading Service paying for it. What are the rules of the game? What does a Grading Service "guarantee" back?

[John Martinez]

NGC does not recognize a one time high price as FMV -

http://www.ngccoin.com/services/writtenguaranty.asp

Quote -

Due to the volatile nature of the coin market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions/sales do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular coin. NGC will determine the current fair market value of a coin based upon what NGC believes, in its sole opinion, to be reliable current market information. NGC's subjective determination of fair market value shall be binding on all parties.

Unquote -

 

Knowing this, if anyone buys an NGC holdered coin for a high premium and it is not what is stated, then expecting to get the inflated paid price is unreasonable at best. NGC's rules on FMV are published on their web site and therefore in the public domain.

[EZ_E]

Knowing this, if anyone buys an NGC holdered coin for a high premium and it is not what is stated, then expecting to get the inflated paid price is unreasonable at best. NGC's rules on FMV are published on their web site and therefore in the public domain.

 

There is nothing unreasonable about that.

[MarkFeld]

Someone bought the coins and brought it to NGC, whose label made it worth somehwere in the area of $10K.

For purposes of accuracy, the (MS66*) label alone, did not make the coin "worth somewhere in the area of $10K". If anything, the color, though now thought to be artificial, did. Other MS66* common date Peace Dollars might be "worth" as little as $500.

 

if anyone buys an NGC holdered coin for a high premium and it is not what is stated, then expecting to get the inflated paid price is unreasonable at best. NGC's rules on FMV are published on their web site and therefore in the public domain.

Ah, but where and how do we (or NGC) draw the line regarding what is an "inflated price" for such an unusual coin? That's the hard part.

[Peace_Fan]

Personally, if someone decides to pay a 20X markup because of toning they are doing it SOLELY on their own. NGC shouldn't be liable, and the dealer shouldn't be liable; they are making an emotional decision that they should back up with their own research and knowledge of FMV. My $.02...

[kranky]

Ah, but where and how do we (or NGC) draw the line regarding what is an "inflated price" for such an unusual coin? That's the hard part.

 

I don't think any TPG should be on the hook for any amount a buyer wants to pay. There's nowhere to draw the line - $15K? $50K? $200K? I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with people paying high premiums for toning, just that those premiums should not be the responsibility of the TPGs. They guarantee authenticity and grade. If people want to pay over and above the market value associated with that, it's on them.

 

What company can afford to have unlimited liability on their products? If this coin is reimbursed for anywhere near $14K by the TPG, I would expect company attorneys to quickly come up with some new guarantee language.

 

Let's say I spend $10,000 to buy a TPG mistake (let's say a low-end 64 that somehow got into a 65 holder) and when I file for my guarantee I send in an invoice showing I paid $50,000. (because my dealer buddy helped me out with the invoice). Hey, to ME that coin was worth it because it has great eye appeal! Now, where's my money? You do it for one, you better do it for all.