Unslabbed material in online auctions...

[Carterofmars]

I am confident I can accuratly grade unslabbed stuff I'm seeing in online auctions (provided the scans are good), but It's not always easy to tell if a piece was cleaned.

 

Questions:

 

1. Any good tips for detecting CLEANED material in online auctions? What do I look for?

 

2. Are there any repiutable dealers of unslabbed material on Ebay/Yahoo?

 

Thanks in advance.

[EricG]

Carter

 

There is no way I know of to distinguish a cleaned piece online short of the seller doing sqaretrade or having a reputable return policy. As for a reputable dealer there is one ebay name that comes to mind: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...STRK:MEFS:MESOI All items are professionally appraised by a company which seems to know coins and the seller is actually the state of Pennsylvania selling seized property and proerty declared unservicable.

[DaveG]

John Carter:

 

If you are confident that you can grade from images on the Internet, then I want some of what you are smoking!

 

You can certainly grade what you think you are seeing, but how do you know that the image is accurate?

 

The image may have been modified by PhotoShop or the coin may have been lighted in such a way as to hide scratches, tool marks, etc. etc.

 

There is no substitute for seeing the coin in hand (or failing that, a good return policy)!

[Wihlborg]

Carter,

 

It is just about impossible to tell if a coin has been cleaned, or for that matter, be accurately graded from a scan, or photo. This is especially true if the person who did the imaging is purposely trying to hide something they don’t want you to know about the coin.

 

In my opinion, most coins that would have any collector value would not be listed raw on eBay if they could have made it into reputable TPG’s holder. Now, I’m not saying that every person selling a raw coin on eBay is trying to rob you, or that any given coin is not problem free just because it’s raw.

 

Heck, I have a number of great coins that I bought raw on eBay, but in my opinion, if you are buying raw coins sight unseen from anyone you don’t know and trust very well, you had better make sure that they offer a generous return policy.

 

John

[Mozin]

Carter,

 

It is just about impossible to tell if a coin has been cleaned, or for that matter, be accurately graded from a scan, or photo. This is especially true if the person who did the imaging is purposely trying to hide something they don’t want you to know about the coin.

 

In my opinion, most coins that would have any collector value would not be listed raw on eBay if they could have made it into reputable TPG’s holder. Now, I’m not saying that every person selling a raw coin on eBay is trying to rob you, or that any given coin is not problem free just because it’s raw.

 

Heck, I have a number of great coins that I bought raw on eBay, but in my opinion, if you are buying raw coins sight unseen from anyone you don’t know and trust very well, you had better make sure that they offer a generous return policy.

 

John

Well stated.

[mhardin2413]

hello--

as for how to tell whether a coin has been cleaned--good luck. i have bought a few that looked ideal on the scans (and in person), sent them in to either ngc or pcgs only to get them back grades lower or "cleaned." i agree with the person who suggested that raw coins out there may have been sent in and come back with problems.

my gut feeling is that most raw coins either did not meet the grade desired by the submitter, and thus are listed as "gem" even if they are 61-62 or they have been cleaned.

i am not a pro, but i've been doing this for 30 years and i still can't tell if a coin has been cleaned (sure, the obvious ones with lots of scratches, but there are enough that have come back that i simply don't know). thus, my practice is to buy certified only, and only those from the top companies.

[Carterofmars]

That is what I'm thinking... for internet purchasing; I have to stick with slabbed material either from PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or IGC.

 

Can't risk someone screwing around with photoshop... hadn't concidered that.

[DaveG]

John Carter,

 

It's certainly a good idea to stick to the major slabs until you build up your knowledge base.

 

Don't forget to look for a good return policy - lighting and Photoshop can affect an image of a slabbed coin, too!

 

 

 

 

p.s., give Deja Thoris a kiss for me!

[Carterofmars]

John Carter,

 

It's certainly a good idea to stick to the major slabs until you build up your knowledge base.

 

Don't forget to look for a good return policy - lighting and Photoshop can affect an image of a slabbed coin, too!

 

 

 

 

p.s., give Deja Thoris a kiss for me!

 

Oh my God... your right... forget it... I'm giving up the hobby.

 

I left my Queen Deja on Barsoom. One day I'll return with a cool coin collection...

[Oldtrader3]

I have been collecting U.S. coins for over (40) years and still can not always determine a cleaned coin via a internet scan or picture. I purchased a pretty expensive and scarce MS 1913-S Barber dime from a major auction house several years ago and THEY could not determine that the coin was cleaned, sight-seen. By the time I knew it was cleaned, I could not return it. There are many cleaned coins in reputable TPG slabs already. Some of these coins are so expertly altered that even the experts have difficulty identifying them. So buyer beware.

[Carterofmars]

I have been collecting U.S. coins for over (40) years and still can not always determine a cleaned coin via a internet scan or picture. I purchased a pretty expensive and scarce MS 1913-S Barber dime from a major auction house several years ago and THEY could not determine that the coin was cleaned, sight-seen. By the time I knew it was cleaned, I could not return it. There are many cleaned coins in reputable TPG slabs already. Some of these coins are so expertly altered that even the experts have difficulty identifying them. So buyer beware.

 

There are many cleaned coins in reputable TPG slabs already.

 

But if it is cleaned the TPG will state such on the holder. If it escapes detection from the "pros" then it will likley escape detection from everyone else. What one does not know won't bother them I guess. I hate to think of it like that but what can you do...

[TomB]

But if it is cleaned the TPG will state such on the holder. If it escapes detection from the "pros" then it will likley escape detection from everyone else.

This is the second time on these boards that I have seen you present this idea and, as per last time, I will tell you again that it is entirely incorrect. Only ANACS will list "Cleaned" on a holder, while all of the major TPG players (ANACS, NGC, PCGS and ICG) will slab cleaned coins without notation as such.

 

At one point these cleaned coins were mostly limited to early Federal coinage but in the succeeding years this has spread to most coinage through the 1920s. Granted, if the cleaning is harsh then the coin will likely get bagged; but if it is less harsh yet still abhorent then there is a distinct possibility that it will be slabbed. Education is your best defense.

 

On a side note, the buyer of my PCGS VF30 1913 half was extremely delighted with the coin and I don't think he will part with it anytime soon.