Age of NGC slabs, by design

[BodyBag]

I have in my grubby hands a NGC slab (Walker) which I think is from the very early days. It has a light green label and no hologram on the reverse - it has the NGC logo etched in gold. Also on my grubby old desk is a slab (Buffalo) with a light blue/green label and it does have a hologram, the long rectanglular logo. Any idea what era these come from ? At what time was NGC toughest on coins? This Walker looks two points undergraded!

[coinman1794]

In my experiece, early slabs from all services seem to be all over the place in terms of grading consistency. Many are undergraded, and your walker could easily bee so. However, just as many were overgraded in the early years.

[Wihlborg]

coinman1794

 

You bring up a point that I have thought about off and on for years. You always hear people talking about how a lot of coins in early PCGS holders are under graded, but in my experience I have found about as many that were over graded as under graded with most by far having the same grade they would receive today. It seems to me the grading consistency was all over the place back then.

 

I don’t know, maybe most of the under graded ones have already been found and resubmitted but I don’t think that if this ever was true that it still is today.

 

This does not stop the dealers from trying to use this perception to their advantage though. They will be sure to note that the coin is in an early holder when they describe the coin. Now think about this for a minute. If a dealer has a coin in an early holder and he truly feels it’s under graded, why wouldn’t he resubmit it himself?

 

I think that anyone who buys a coin in an early PCGS holder thinking that they just bought an automatic upgrade could be in for a big surprise.

 

John

 

[Elcontador]

The oldest NGC holders did not have the hologram.

 

John makes a good point. The upgrade candidates re first generation holders have already found new homes, so to speak.

These silver coins are typically white with lots of eye appeal (I don't collect gold, so I cannot comment on it).

What I've found in PCGS 1st generation holders in the last few years (haven't seen many 1st gen. NCS slabs) are a) ugly,

technically graded MS 65 silver coins, b) RB Large & Half Cents with so little RD in them that if resubmitted today, would be

designated BN c) and toned coins (but not monster toned) which are out of favor with the grading services these days (especially

with PCGS) re being assigned supergrade (MS 66 or better) status.

 

[Dog97]

1964_XF40_Dime,

Your Walker is in a 3rd generation holder. It was issued from 1987-89.

In 1988 a number of counterfeit PCGS slabs turned up. They are easily identifiable by the different fonts and slab shell molding tabs. In 1989 both NGC & PCGS started using holagrams for added security.

Your Buffalo is in a 4th generation holder. It was issued from 1989-1992.

 

[BodyBag]

Thanks Dog! What did the first generation look like?

[rgv]

Thanks Dog! What did the first generation look like?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3015365610

[MikeKing]

If a dealer has a coin in an early holder and he truly feels it’s under graded, why wouldn’t he resubmit it himself?

 

Great point!

[Dog97]

rgv

The 1st generation looks pretty much like the 2nd generation except the neophrene coin holder insert was BLACK.

It highlighted silver coins but made copper hard to see so it was discontinued after only 3 months of use in late 1987.

This slab is highly sought after by slab collectors & researchers such as myself and a few others who truly do buy the holder & not the coin.

They will pay a HEFTY prem for this rare & elusive model regardless of the coin.

[BodyBag]

This slab is highly sought after.... They will pay a HEFTY prem for this rare & elusive model regardless of the coin.

 

OK, but that Saint-Gaudens went for $428 which doesn't seem like a big premium. Did you miss this one?

[Dog97]

Yep. That's only the 2nd one I've seen in about 2 or 3 years too.

[michael]

the saint went for 62 money not because of the slab but i have not seen the coin in person so who knows?

once you start to get into the higher hundreds of dollars in price the black holder becomes less meaningful

 

now if you had a 20 dollar coin in a black slab then it might go for over 100 200 dollars????

 

i guess with this coin and its holder its currently in is all about who happens to see it that day on ebay since it was not mentioned it was in a black slab some potential buyers could have missed it going for more??

 

for me first generation holder or current holder

 

BUY THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER

 

seems like currently holders are collected and hyped for the holder

 

just another selling point i suppose the holder might help and be a good selling point depending on CONJECTURE about what generation the holder is and what the holder says

 

but after all is said and done AND WHAT ULTIMATELY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT WHICH MANY ARE FORGETTING

 

 

***********************************************************

**************** BUY THE COIN******************************

*************** NOT THE HOLDER *****************************

************************************************************

 

 

 

 

sincerely michael

 

 

[BodyBag]

Which one of the following Graemlins would you pay more for...

 

 

or

 

{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}

{{{MS-69}}}

{{{{{ }}}}}

{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}

{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}

 

 

 

[braddick]

Mike, excellent point, but as an owner of a Morgan dollar in one of these first generation NGC black slabs who DID pay (much) more for the holder than the coin- if it is done for fun and "collectibility" only, then I think it's safe and okay to do so.

[coinman1794]

"If a dealer has a coin in an early holder and he truly feels it’s under graded, why wouldn’t he resubmit it himself? "

 

...Because, the upside potential may not be great enough to justify the expense, the downside potential may be too great (even a PQ MS64 that is cracked out to get a 65 can come back as a 63!), the dealer may not have enough coins ready to send in to meet the 5 coin minimum, the dealer may not wish to play the crack out game and risk damaging the coin, the dealer may not want to go through any of the hassles of sending coins in themselves (and, you know, not everyone is a submitter!); the dealer might truely be willing to pass a great deal along, the coin might be on consignment from a collector who wants to sell fast, the dealer might work on a fast inventory turnover, etc, etc, etc.

 

There are many perfectly legitimate reasons why a dealer might not choose to resumit a coin himself. Just because a dealer advertises a coin as being better than the assigned grade without resubmitting it himself doesn't mean he/she is lying or being knowingly over optomistic. Not everyone is out to get you and not everyone is deceptive!

 

 

[dragon]

I am a big collector of the old NGC black holders and now have 6 of them. They are really hard to come by.

 

dragon

[Wihlborg]

coinman1794,

 

...Because, the upside potential may not be great enough to justify the expense, the downside potential may be too great (even a PQ MS64 that is cracked out to get a 65 can come back as a 63!

 

Perhaps when I worded my question I should have been more specific, but I assumed that anyone reading it would realize that I was not referring to a situation as obvious as the example you give above.

 

What I was referring to is when a dealer describes a coin in an early PCGS holder that does have enough of an upside to be resubmitted if it were under graded and he notes in the description that the coin is in an early holder without elaborating any further, leaving the impression that it has a chance to upgrade.

 

the dealer may not have enough coins ready to send in to meet the 5 coin minimum, the dealer may not wish to play the crack out game and risk damaging the coin, the dealer may not want to go through any of the hassles of sending coins in themselves (and, you know, not everyone is a submitter!)

 

I am sorry, but I cannot believe that any of the above reasons would come into play if it meant the dealers profit could increases just because he had to be ‘bothered’ sending the coin back in. Also he does not necessarily have to crack the coin out if he is so afraid of damaging it.

 

Just because a dealer advertises a coin as being better than the assigned grade without resubmitting it himself doesn't mean he/she is lying or being knowingly over optimistic.

 

I never said otherwise. A dealer stating that in his option a coin looked better than the assigned grade is different than a dealer trying to give the impression that a coin is under graded by just noting that it is in an early holder.

 

Not everyone is out to get you and not everyone is deceptive!

 

I certainly don’t feel that everyone is ‘out to get me’ or that everyone is ‘deceptive’ and again I never said otherwise. There are good dealers and there are not so good dealers and I like to think that I have a good relationship with a number of the best.

 

John

 

[coinman1794]

“This does not stop the dealers from trying to use this perception to their advantage though. They will be sure to note that the coin is in an early holder when they describe the coin. Now think about this for a minute. If a dealer has a coin in an early holder and he truly feels it’s under graded, why wouldn’t he resubmit it himself? “

 

The tone of the initial question in which I responded to insinuated that someone who advertises a coin like this is possibly doing something wrong by being over-optimistic just because of the holder. And somehow, everyone in this situation with an obvious upgrade would surely send it in themselves. In other words, since they didn’t send it in themselves, it must not really be upgradable. That's why I mentioned that not everyone who does this is being false. As I mentioned (and you skipped over) as one of the many, many relevant examples that I gave, some people are willing to pass a great deal along! And there are others don’t know how or don’t want to submit to the grading services.

 

Also, many poeple make sure they note the holder becuase, at leat in my experience, every time I list a PCGS coin on ebay, someone asks me what holder it's in. It's just easier to tell everyone right away. I'm just trying to say that there are many reasons why a seller might mention the holder, and this practice should, therefore, not immediately be called into question.

 

Of course some dealers do insinuate that old holder stuff is undergraded, but you gave a blanket statement that people would never really sell a PQ coin, and that is not true.

[Dog97]

To a serious collector the holder does mean something to collectors that buy coins sight unseen over the internet. The eBay seller might have a pict but it's still basically sight unseen.

I see many dealers play on the "old green PCGS holder" spiel. If it's that important which green holder? There's only about 5 different types, some more desirable than others. Same thing for NGC holders.

I like old holders because that means the coin has been protected for almost the last 20 years which means it hasn't been "messed with" lately and if it ever was then it has had time to stablize and won't be turning into a black piece of crud or have fingerprints popup 2 years from now.

For $5 ea. you can have your junky, overgraded or AT old holdered coins reholdered under the Reholder Service. You avoid the pitfalls of downgrades & bodybags while at the same time getting back a "freshly holdered" coin that everybody perceives was graded under NGC & PCGS's current standards.

[Wihlborg]

[coinman1794,

 

I believe that you missed the point of my original post, which was about the perception that most coins in early PCGS holders are under graded because you took one paragraph out of context and focused on it, instead of the whole post.

 

I began my original post agreeing with the following comments you made

 

In my experiece, early slabs from all services seem to be all over the place in terms of grading consistency. Many are undergraded, and your walker could easily bee so. However, just as many were overgraded in the early years.

 

My reply was

 

You bring up a point that I have thought about off and on for years. You always hear people talking about how a lot of coins in early PCGS holders are under graded, but in my experience I have found about as many that were over graded as under graded with most by far having the same grade they would receive today. It seems to me the grading consistency was all over the place back then.

 

I than went on to say the following

 

I don’t know, maybe most of the under graded ones have already been found and resubmitted but I don’t think that if this ever was true that it still is today.

 

This does not stop the dealers from trying to use this perception to their advantage though. They will be sure to note that the coin is in an early holder when they describe the coin. Now think about this for a minute. If a dealer has a coin in an early holder and he truly feels it’s under graded, why wouldn’t he resubmit it himself?

 

I think that anyone who buys a coin in an early PCGS holder thinking that they just bought an automatic upgrade could be in for a big surprise.

 

 

What I am talking about is the widespread perception some have that just because a coin is in an early PCGS holder there is a very good chance it will up grade. This is something you stated yourself that in your experience was not true. So the point is that even through most knowledgeable dealers and collectors know this not to be the case there are dealers who are willing to let this perception work to their advantage. I never said that by stating the coin was in an early holder the dealer was doing something wrong, just that they are willing to let the perception work to their advantage, and I stand by that statement because if the perception that coins in early PCGS holders were somehow better than coins in more recent holders were not there no one would care what age holder a coin was in and the dealers would not feel the need to note it.

 

You made the following statement

 

many people make sure they note the holder becuase, at leat in my experience, every time I list a PCGS coin on ebay, someone asks me what holder it's in. It's just easier to tell everyone right away.

 

If this is true aren’t you benefiting from some peoples perception that coins in the early holders are better? I am not saying that you are doing anything wrong. If the coin is in an early holder and you note that it is you are not lying. You are stating a fact, but a buyers perception that the coin may be better than the assigned grade may help the coin sell, to your advantage.

 

You also seem to have been upset by the following question I posted

 

If a dealer has a coin in an early holder and he truly feels it’s under graded, why wouldn’t he resubmit it himself?

 

As I have already stated I assumed it would be obvious that I was referring to a situation where the coin had enough of an upside to make it worthwhile to be resubmitted. Again I stand by my question. Dealers are in business to make money. Nothing wrong with that, but let me give an example. If a dealer has a 1921 Missouri commem in an MS-64 holder with a value of $700, but he truly feels that the coin is under graded and is an MS-65 with a value of $4,900 is that dealer going to say to himself ‘Gee it’s such a hassle to send it in to be regraded. It’s not worth the trouble. I think I’ll just sell it as a MS-64’. I would have to say that IMO a dealer like that would not be in business for long. He would lose his shirt!

 

And finally, yes I will admit that some people are willing to pass a great deal along. I have happily had this happen to me a few times and truly appreciate when it happens, but in general like the old saying goes ‘There is no Santa Claus in numismatics’. I am fully aware that as collectors our collections are only as good as the dealers we buy from. If there were no good dealers there would not be any nice collections. The original post was never meant it be a post against dealers, you just seemed to take it that way. It was all about some people’s perception of early PCGS holders and how it affects our buying/ collecting. I will also say that after rereading my original post there is one phase that I would like to correct. When I stated ‘This does not stop the dealers from trying to use this perception to their advantage’ I should have said ‘some dealers’ not ‘the dealers’ as this is what I meant and it is true that there are a lot of dealers who do not make note of whether or not a coin is in an early holder unless asked.

 

John

 

 

[coinman1794]

As I have already stated I assumed it would be obvious that I was referring to a situation where the coin had enough of an upside to make it worthwhile to be resubmitted. Again I stand by my question. Dealers are in business to make money. Nothing wrong with that, but let me give an example. If a dealer has a 1921 Missouri commem in an MS-64 holder with a value of $700, but he truly feels that the coin is under graded and is an MS-65 with a value of $4,900 is that dealer going to say to himself ‘Gee it’s such a hassle to send it in to be regraded. It’s not worth the trouble. I think I’ll just sell it as a MS-64’. I would have to say that IMO a dealer like that would not be in business for long. He would lose his shirt!

 

If that coin is in an old holder, the chances are, it has sold many times before in just that manner.

[coinman1794]

"And finally, yes I will admit that some people are willing to pass a great deal along. I have happily had this happen to me a few times and truly appreciate when it happens, but in general like the old saying goes ‘There is no Santa Claus in numismatics’. I am fully aware that as collectors our collections are only as good as the dealers we buy from. If there were no good dealers there would not be any nice collections. The original post was never meant it be a post against dealers, you just seemed to take it that way. It was all about some people’s perception of early PCGS holders and how it affects our buying/ collecting. I will also say that after rereading my original post there is one phase that I would like to correct. When I stated ‘This does not stop the dealers from trying to use this perception to their advantage’ I should have said ‘some dealers’ not ‘the dealers’ as this is what I meant and it is true that there are a lot of dealers who do not make note of whether or not a coin is in an early holder unless asked."

 

I'm glad you brought this up because, as I said, you made a blanket statement that isn't true ( virtually no blanket statements are!). I was only against the fact that you (whether knowingly or not) insinuated that anyone selling a PQ coin without getting it upgraded is lying. That is not true. In reality, it is just that MOST people are lying! You simply needed to be more specific, as you mentioned in an earlier post. When you said "If a dealer has a coin in an early holder and he truly feels it’s under graded, why wouldn’t he resubmit it himself?" I simply listed as many legitimate reasons as possible because there weren't any parameters on your question.

 

 

 

 

[coinman1794]

"I believe that you missed the point of my original post, which was about the perception that most coins in early PCGS holders are under graded because you took one paragraph out of context and focused on it, instead of the whole post."

 

I didn't miss the point, I agree with everything you said, except that one line.

 

"If this is true aren’t you benefiting from some people's perception that coins in the early holders are better? I am not saying that you are doing anything wrong. If the coin is in an early holder and you note that it is you are not lying. You are stating a fact, but a buyers perception that the coin may be better than the assigned grade may help the coin sell, to your advantage."

 

The answer is yes and no. It may inadvertantly feed the perception, but the only reason I would do it is so I don't have to keep e-mailing people with the same information over and over. And, if I don't answer questions, I will develope poor customer service. So, I answer the question ahead of time, and it is a lot easier for me. What I really hate is when they insist on seeing a picture of the label...they must not believe me when I tell them the # and the exact slab type and color !

 

[Wihlborg]

What I really hate is when they insist on seeing a picture of the label...they must not believe me when I tell them the # and the exact slab type and color !

 

A perfect example of people fanatically buying the holder and not the coin, which brings us back to that pesky problem with perceptions. When I buy a coin I don’t care what age holder it is in. I will only buy a coin that I feel meets the grade it is supposed to be and has the eye appeal I want.

 

I just don’t get the perception some have of coins in early holders being better. There are good and bad coins in all holders regardless of the age of the holder. IMO these people need to start concentrating on the coins and stop fixating on the holders.

 

John