Numismatists short in supply?

[the_Thing ®]

Heritage has been advertising for MONTHS, and I mean MONTHS in Coin World for a Numismatist. Same ad, about 4 inches by 3 inches in size. I wonder what the problem is.

[gmarguli]

I wonder what the problem is.

 

Texas?

[goose3]

Texas and they probably don't pay [embarrassing lack of self control].

[the_Thing ®]

Dallas is just like any other big city. I don't think I would want to liver there. I'm sure its decent paying, I'm guessing starting at at least $35,000. I'm sure people must of applied, but I guess they just haven't found the right person yet.

[michael]

it is a simple thing heritage most likely pays close to 60k if not way over for a true numismatist but they will require this numismatist to generate three times if not more in profits for heritage coin and then you got to work for a company and they own you and tell you waht to do etc.

 

but the answer is so simple it is riduclious

 

if there is any numismatist of substance in this current market that is worth anything this numismatist can go out all by himself and make 100k 150k++++ or more!!!! a year and AND be his own boss and work for himself and go where he wants to go

 

he does not have to go to a place like heritage to work for under 100k a year and be under someones thumb and generate three to 4 times if not more as much incoem for heritage this numismatist can go out on his own and make more lots more and be their own bosss set their own hours and only answer to themselves

 

you guys are clueless about the coin game

 

which is..... in and of itself not a bad thing or good thing just the way it is

[EZ_E]

you guys are clueless about the coin game

 

 

What is worse, being clueless or having the knowledge and not using it?!

 

You know that I still love you though, michael.

[the_Thing ®]

I doubt its all that easy. You would have to have a "floor plan", a line of credit, or be wealthy to begin with in order to buy inventory to make a living like you are suggesting. I'm guessing at least $300,000 in order to be able make a decent living. More than likely, $500,000.

[truthteller]

I doubt its all that easy. You would have to have a "floor plan", a line of credit, or be wealthy to begin with in order to buy inventory to make a living like you are suggesting. I'm guessing at least $300,000 in order to be able make a decent living. More than likely, $500,000.

 

 

Nope, not even close. If you are good at crack outs, you can make $30K easy with little or no inventory. You can even use the auction house float or 45day line of credit. If you have $500K in inventory, you are playing with fire at this point of the market.

 

 

TRUTH

[the_Thing ®]

30k isn't what I would call a good living. But, I do believe you.

[truthteller]

30k isn't what I would call a good living. But, I do believe you.

 

 

$30K in Texas = $100K in CA.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[the_Thing ®]

Is there a greater potential for profit now that slabbing has become the norm and people buy the grade and not the coin? I guess when coins were in 2x2 holders it wasn't as easy to make a profit as it is now with cracking out coins and resubmitting.

[truthteller]

Is there a greater potential for profit now that slabbing has become the norm and people buy the grade and not the coin? I guess when coins were in 2x2 holders it wasn't as easy to make a profit as it is now with cracking out coins and resubmitting.

 

Yes, today, with the upgrade profit potential, a good crackout dealer can literally make $500K net in a year. However, in order to make this kind of money, there needs to be a constant flow of new, fresh coin material onto the marketplace. This is becoming a problem. When coins were raw, profit was usually generated by dealers "stealing" coins from customers with lowball offers. Now that most older collections have be slabbed, the raw market has disappeared.

 

 

TRUTH

[the_Thing ®]

$500K net in a year

 

Thats a whole lot of cracking. Seems to me one would be have to travel constantly to coin shows.

[truthteller]

$500K net in a year

 

Thats a whole lot of cracking. Seems to me one would be have to travel constantly to coin shows.

 

Yes, mostly to auctions around the country. I know of one dealer who worked construction. Then, he dabbled in coins, then got really good at spoting crackouts and began upgrading. One year he netted $1million, but rarely could he afford to stay home. He gave up construction.

 

 

TRUTH

[the_Thing ®]

It would take a lot of money to make money. Travel, buying inventory and then resubmitting it and paying the cost. What is the average profit produced out of resubmitting?

[jom]

Yes, mostly to auctions around the country. I know of one dealer who worked construction. Then, he dabbled in coins, then got really good at spoting crackouts and began upgrading. One year he netted $1million, but rarely could he afford to stay home. He gave up construction.

 

I guess the one thing that irks me about this crackout thing is that these people serve absolutely NO purpose whatsoever other than lining their own pockets. I mean, what service are they providing? Nothing. We all sit around here whining and crying about AT doctors and unscurpulous dealers but I see nothing in what a crackout artist does that is really any better.

 

jom

[truthteller]

Yes, mostly to auctions around the country. I know of one dealer who worked construction. Then, he dabbled in coins, then got really good at spoting crackouts and began upgrading. One year he netted $1million, but rarely could he afford to stay home. He gave up construction.

 

I guess the one thing that irks me about this crackout thing is that these people serve absolutely NO purpose whatsoever other than lining their own pockets. I mean, what service are they providing? Nothing. We all sit around here whining and crying about AT doctors and unscurpulous dealers but I see nothing in what a crackout artist does that is really any better.

 

jom

 

Very true. However, the same can be said for stock brokers, bond traders, equity managers or anyone else who deals in paper profits.

 

 

TRUTH

[EZ_E]

$500K net in a year

 

Thats a whole lot of cracking. Seems to me one would be have to travel constantly to coin shows.

 

Well, let's get a crack-a-lacking !

[truthteller]

It would take a lot of money to make money. Travel, buying inventory and then resubmitting it and paying the cost. What is the average profit produced out of resubmitting?

 

The business model is different for true crackout dealers, buy and sell dealers and dealers who hold, wait and sell. Crackout dealers need a constant flow of cash, bar none, since many coins are tied up at the grading services at any given time.These dealers are at the mercy of the grading services, and MUST make a ton of upgrades to finance their business. Their profit from month to month can be very high, sometimes 1000's of %, however, it averages out to something along the lines of 200% per coin. These guys have an insane travel schedule and must rely on other dealers to sell the product, such as in auctions or on memo.

The standard buy and sell dealer, which makes up the vast majority of dealers, has a good customer base. Their markup is usually about 40%, but is mostly guaranteed when the market is good. They have a healthy inventory and must supply the customer on a regular basis. Other dealers do the show circuit and rely on retail transactions to maintain cash flow.

The hold, wait and sell dealer usually can afford to carry a small inventory and play the market when it gets hot, then sell when the appropriate market levels have been reached. Many vest pocket dealers take this approach when the coin market is good.

 

Now, when the market is bad.

 

TRUTH

[the_Thing ®]

If what you say is true, then why would a person be a coin grader for PCGS or NGC. One would assume they would be excellent at the "crack-out" game and could make 10X the money cracking out and being their own boss as compared to a grader. Take Camerson Keifer for example. I know people give him a hard time, but everyone respects his ability and opinion on grading coins. If it is as easy as you say, and takes as little money as you say, why do coin graders for the big companies work for them?

[IGWT]

Very true. However, the same can be said for stock brokers, bond traders, equity managers or anyone else who deals in paper profits.

 

Purchasing undervalued assets and reselling for a profit is as old as dirt. That process seems suspect, however, in the case of crackouts. The difference in price between grades is based on nothing more than a variable opinion. That is, the difference in value is often illusory while the profit is very real.

[gmarguli]

Yes, mostly to auctions around the country. I know of one dealer who worked construction. Then, he dabbled in coins, then got really good at spoting crackouts and began upgrading. One year he netted $1million, but rarely could he afford to stay home. He gave up construction.

 

I guess the one thing that irks me about this crackout thing is that these people serve absolutely NO purpose whatsoever other than lining their own pockets. I mean, what service are they providing? Nothing. We all sit around here whining and crying about AT doctors and unscurpulous dealers but I see nothing in what a crackout artist does that is really any better.

 

jom

 

Are you sure the one thing that irks you is that you can't do what these people do and make the same type of money doing it?

 

BTW, just to make you happy, today I just got back a submission from a grading service. 4 of 7 upgraded.

[IGWT]

Oh, and BTW, Heritage is looking to hire a numismatist, not a grader.

[the_Thing ®]

I do believe that is what I referred to in the title.

[truthteller]

If what you say is true, then why would a person be a coin grader for PCGS or NGC. One would assume they would be excellent at the "crack-out" game and could make 10X the money cracking out and being their own boss as compared to a grader. Take Camerson Keifer for example. I know people give him a hard time, but everyone respects his ability and opinion on grading coins. If it is as easy as you say, and takes as little money as you say, why do coin graders for the big companies work for them?

 

In general, the best coin graders do not work for big companies and do not work for the grading services, since they don't pay enough. It's not "easy", it takes quite a bit of coin knowledge about each series, varieties, strike characteristics, etc. For many years, the TPG had a difficult time keeping qualified coin graders. That is why so many good graders only worked for the TPG for a short period of time, because more money could be make in the marketplace. The major services keep several coin graders on the payroll at a solid six figure salary. Still, it's not enough. Heritage needs numismatists to buy and sell coins, with knowledge. Heritage already has "coin graders" with the owners. However, it just depends on how much money you want to make versus quality of life.

 

 

TRUTH

[the_Thing ®]

You evidently have enough faith in the graders skill to resubmit coins to them.

[IGWT]

I do believe that is what I referred to in the title.

 

Yes, but the conversation evolved to the point of discussing graders, not numismatists. I don't equate the two, but maybe others do.

[the_Thing ®]

Whats up with your sig picture? Very nice!

[truthteller]

You evidently have enough faith in the graders skill to resubmit coins to them.

 

Most of my coin profits are from buy, hold and sell scenarios. I send very few coins into the TPG for upgrade in any given year. However, the coins that I do submit have a 65%-70% upgrade factor, so I don't really waste money. The biggest individual coin profits were from coins that upgraded 2 uncirculated points or more by accident. Needless to say, those coins did not stay around very long.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[jom]

Are you sure the one thing that irks you is that you can't do what these people do and make the same type of money doing it?

 

I think you mean "Are you NOT sure the thing that irks you....". Given that: Yes, I'm sure that is NOT what irks me.

 

I don't know if I could make that kind of money but I could do well I suppose. Probably as well as.....

 

BTW, just to make you happy, today I just got back a submission from a grading service. 4 of 7 upgraded.

 

....YOU seem to be doing.

 

jom