PNNA Show Report!

[jtryka]

Well, it was a beautiful day in seattle, sunny and warm, so what do I do? I go to a coin show in a dimly lit gymnasium! Well, the lighting was terrible, so if the dealers weren't smart enought to bring their own good lighting, then it was awful! But that's probably the only negative thing I could say about the show itself.

 

I was one of the first 500 people, so I got a commemorative token struck in pewter. The token was based on the Pine Tree Shilling and was struck by hand. Inside there was a guy who made these, and for $2 he would strike one in silver for you. It was very interesting, as he explained how he made the dies by hand, and then hammered the coins. He also admitted that he messed up the date on the dies so he had to rework them (not at all unlike early coinage!) so the 5 in the date of the show (April 25-27) always comes out weak. The one he struck for me was slightly off center, and he offered to make a new one for me, but I thought this one had more character, so I kept it. Here is is:

 

Token Obverse

Token Reverse

 

So I found lots of good stuff to buy, and talked to some dealers I knew. It was a lot of fun, but then business came. I brought a few coins I wouldn't mind parting with for the right price, especially in trade for something I might like better.

 

Well, first stop was this modern commem dealer, to perhaps sell a 1996 NCS that PCGS graded MS-68 (I have low cost in this one as I bought it on eBay, and the seller described it as a proof, so I paid $30 for a $200 coin). So I figured grey sheet bid was $175, so that's what I wanted (though I could come down to maybe $150). I hand it to the dealer (an older gentleman) and the first thing he says is "I only deal with PCGS coins, so I wouldn't be interested in this." And I gently reminded him that it was a PCGS graded coin (hence the PCGS holder), and he replies "but I don't know who graded it." Right there I should have known that I should just walk, since he was not interested. I explain it again and he gets it this time. So he looks up the coin in the inventory list on his palm pilot, and says he was one in proof but not unc. So he looks up grey sheet, and it bids $175 raw, and says, "I wouldn't be able to pay that, since it's a 68 and not a 69." Then he proceeds to examine the coin and can't figure out why it's not a 69 (shock, it was graded last summer). So I asked hit top price and he said $125. Ok, for a coin that could retail on eBay for $200, I was not going to sell for $125 and let this guy get 60% gross profit for nothing (what does he think he's running a drug company?). So I walk, a little annoyed at the waste of time.

 

Next stop was a guy that had some nice bust halves, saw the 1827 and fell in love with it, done deal. Then looked at some more bust halves and found my way over to the other end of the gym, and a dealer that I met once before in Portland. I bought something from him then too, as he always seems to have fair prices and great material (in the double eagle area). I found an 1852 that was lovely, and probably the nicest AU-53 I've seen (graded by PCGS of course ) and he wanted $50 over bid. Done deal. Finally, I went to another dealer I see at every show, and have purchased from several times, and he has a really nice MS-63 common date $5 Liberty. So let the wheeling and dealing begin. With the trade in mind, he was pretty generous on what I had to offer (a Lib nickel, a Morgan, a Peace, and a Liberty T3 double eagle. We ended up exchanging at grey sheet big on the expensive stuff, so I walked out with the $5 lib and some pocket money for dinner. Overall a great day, especially given it was the first time I've actually sold coins at a show.

 

As for the newps, look for another thread shortly!

[darktone]

Those sound like some good deals! I wish some of the local dealers in my area(southern Wisconsin) could grade a raw coin and be able to grade good enough to put some deals together. mike

[TomB]

Cool thread, thanks for sharing. I really like the way the token looks, was it the Gallery Mint that was making them for you?

[braddick]

These first hand Show reports are my favorite Threads. Thanks for taking the time to write it and making us feel like we were right there with you.

 

[jtryka]

Tom B,

 

No, it wasn't the Gallery Mint that made the tokens, it was a man named Greg Franck-Weiby who is part of a group that does midieval reinactments (I can't remember the name of the group though), but he hand struck all 500 of the souvenir pewter pieces by himself. Here is a link to the PNNA website that shows him making the silver ones at the show today: Hand striking coins

[jtryka]

thanks braddick, in the spirit of sharing, I will give you a couple of stories from one of the dealers I spoke with today (that's one of my favorite parts or dealer relationships is sharing interesting stories).

 

So as I was waiting to pay for my 52 double eagle, the dealer was talking to another couple who just bought a nice Saint and WL half (I think), and he was talking about grading standards. He basically said that most of the grading has slipped, and what was an MS-65 10 or 20 years ago is now MS-66, so he mainly likes to stock MS-66 graded coins as he feels they are really what an MS-65 should be. He also advised against buying MS-65 coins since there was much less certainty of what grade you were actually buying. Then he pointed out an NCG coin graded MS-67* (I think it was a common date WLH). Keep in mind that this dealer had told me earlier that he really preferred PCGS graded coins. So he said that a person brought that particular coin in to sell and it bids $550 in MS-67, and he looked at the coin and immediately offered $850 for it and asked "do you have any more?" The seller looked at him like he was nuts but his reply was "hey, it's an awesome coin, and for that price I wish I could find a dozen more." So he was basically doing what I wish more dealers would do, teach their customers that the coins are the important part of the transaction! The second tidbit, is that this dealer with PCGS biases, looks very favorable on the NGC*, and thinks of the * coins as being what the coin truly would grade back in the old days (something I believe is likely true, though I haven't thought about it in those terms before).

 

The second story was just one of those interesting stories that become folklore in numismatics. As I said before, this guy always has NICE material, a lot of which is way out of my price range. The 52 double eagle I bought from him was a nice coin for an AU-53, and he told me he really has a hard time carrying Type 1 double eagles because they often look so baggy, even in MS grades, and he doesn't like carrying coins that he doesn't like the look of, so not surprisingly, this was one of the few he didn't mind holding in inventory. But I digress.

 

So this man has some very high profile clients, the type of clients that would smack of familiarity if you are an avid reader of Forbes or Barrons (this guy is first class, so he didn't mention names, and this is how he described the client to me). So he had one such client that came down for the ANA show in Portland a number of years ago. He talked to a dealer friend on the east coast who had an 1804 dollar for sale, and he advised the dealer to bring it to the ANA show. The other dealer's response was, "should I bother? do you really think I have a chance of selling this in Portland?" He assured him, and the eastern dealer agreed to bring it. This dealer called the client to make sure they came to the show since there would be some material there that they must see.

 

So at the show, this dealer showed the client the coin and said, "you must have this coin, just buy it." So the client agreed, and bought the coin with a few others for $268K, and then handed the dealer a personal check for the amount. The eastern dealer looks at the check, then looks at the name on the check, and says, "ok, we'll mail you the coins in 2 weeks when the check clears." This dealer looks at him and says, "are you nuts??? do you know who this person is? This person could make your career as a client! The eastern dealer wouldn't budge, and finally this dealer offered to personally vouch for the check, and he let the client take the coins. He told me that he still couldn't thank that dealer enough for that bone -headed move, since it ensured that this client would remain his for the forseeable future!

 

So fast forward a couple of years, and the client calls this dealer and asks how the market was, and whether they should keep or sell the 1804 dollar, and he said the market is strong, you should sell it. So the dealer arranges the consignment, and the coin sells at auction for $1.2 million. Now the auction house had the audacity to charge the full 15% juice on the sale, which I think is unconscionable, since the house should pay them for the privilege of being able to offer such a headline coin. So in the end, the client calls this dealers and thanks him, and asks how much he should be paid for arranging all of this, and the dealer responded, how about $500? I thought, that sounds crazy, but his response was, "all I did was make a few phone calls, how much is that worth?" Besides, treating that client right will just ensure that he comes to me with future business and that's worth a lot more than a comission on one large sale. I was like a kid sitting around a campfire listening to his grandfather telling stories at this point. Absolutely amazing!

 

Could this all be BS? Maybe, I didn't verify it, but this guy doesn't strike me as one to spin yarns like this to increase his self-esteem, especially when I look at his inventory. Even if it is just BS, it was still entertaining as all get out!

[jeh46544]

Amazing show report and an amazing story! Thanks for sharing!

[Wihlborg]

Great story Jeff! Thanks for sharing it with us. I love stories like these, whether hearing them first hand or reading them as told by someone else.

[Tradedollarnut]

No 1804 dollar has sold for $1.2M at auction, so at the very least his numbers are funky. But it's a cool story.

 

 

[kranky]

Great report, and love those stories!

[GP_]

thanks! I love first hand show reports!

[truthteller]

Great, great story. However, I don't know any dealer who would personally guarantee a $268K check, whomever the client is. Tell us more!!!!!!

 

TRUTH

[jtryka]

Well, as I said, I have no way of telling whether the story is true, nor did he say how long ago it occurred. Hence it's just a great story, it might be all wrong, or a total lie, but it's at least entertaining. As for a dealer personally guaranteeing the check, well, if the dealer was absolutely certain that the client had the funds to cover it, is that really much of a risk on the dealers part?

[truthteller]

From my dealings in business, you can never guarantee an amount of money that is not yours unless you are willing to lose that money. Once you guarantee a check, that's money of your own you are now putting up. If you vouch for another person, that's a different matter and you are just giving an opinion from past dealings. I know of a major dealer who was big time back in the 1980's. Everyone knew of him and he was great to deal with. He took many coins on consignment and gave dealers checks to hold for two weeks, part of his regular dealings. No one had a clue since the dealer was big time. By the end of the two weeks, the checks had all bounced, the consignment coins were gone and the dealer went bankrupt. GMarguli had a good story of a 'good' dealer in the San Fernando valley who turned bad real fast.

 

TRUTH

[jtryka]

Truth, this wasn't the dealer, this was the customer check. And yes, I know bad things can happen like this, but what if the check was from Warren Buffet? Would that make a difference?

[Wihlborg]

Truth,

 

I think that anytime you hear a story second or third hand you have to take it with a grain of salt, and sometimes more like a pound. I don't necessarily believe every fact of a story I hear, but that does not mean the story is not entertaining.

 

Maybe the coin was not really an 1804 dollar and maybe the amount of the check was not really $268K. The coin might have really been a state quarter and the check for $58.50 when the deal actually went down. Who knows? These stories tend to grow bigger and bigger each time they are told.

 

The enjoying part to me about stories like these is the human dynamics that goes on between the participants.

 

I do agree though that I do not know anyone who would personally guarantee a check for such a large sum, basically because you never can tell when someone is on the verge of going bad no matter how good they were in the past!

 

John

 

[truthteller]

Well, I guess a check from Warren Buffet would be kinda OK But a check from Bill Gates would definitely have a hold. Those computer geeks never have any money.

 

TRUTH

[michael]

wow a great show report from someone a collector on the front lines first person !

i love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and also his honest accessment

 

these reports on here are for me the better threads

 

keep them coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

sincerely michael

[Beijim]

There exists one of these stories about Bill Gates in which he delayed a line at a convenience store while fishing in his pocket for a 50c discount coupon in order to purchase some butter pecan ice cream. Finally (the story goes), a woman behind him, who knew who he was, put down two quarters in disgust just to get things moving.

 

God only knows the origin of the tale. I had cocktails with Bill Gates. His glasses were smudged. His navy suit could have come from K-Mart. But he was a nice fellow and far more entertaining than you might imagine. It was an odd situation. He was worth about $7B at the time, and no one in the room was talking with him. Perhaps folks were intimidated. So I decided, "this is bogus," and introduced myself. It was a pleasant evening.

 

He didn't buy any coins, that I recall .

 

Beijim

 

[jtryka]

Well, as I said in the original post, the story is just that, sort of a piece of folklore, like stories of Davy Crockett.

 

The other fact that I didn't mention in my first report was the ANA booth/exhibit. They had a nice exhibit of colonial coins which I very much enjoyed, even though I am not the slightest bit interested in collecting them. So as I walked by the table, they were pitching memberships and the one guy asked me if I was a member, and if not would I like to join. My first question was, "Are the Hagers still involved with your organization?" And the first guy was stumped (even though I already knew about the decision and that they resigned from the ANA). So he asked the woman who was also there (she was a governor), and she assured me they are no longer involved and my response was, "Well, then I am interested in joining" (I have refused to join with them involved as a matter of principle). So, I am now a member of the ANA. They were giving nice gifts to join, so I chose the grading video since that sounded much more educational than the 10x Loupe they were offering! So with 2 issues of the Numismatist, and piles of info on the museum and library, I departed!

 

Now for some other highlights. I saw lots of early material including some pretty nice early dollars and bust halves. I saw lots and lots of Morgans, and more common date Saints than you can shake a stick at (in fact I didn't find a single Saint there that I did not already have). There was one table, and I forget which, that had a few lovely proof Liberty gold pieces, including an 1894 $20 in PR-64 Cam and an 1899 $5 in PR-66 DCAM (a gorgeous coin!!!). The other thing that struck me was how few moderns there were in slabs. There were lots of moderns, just raw, and priced appropriately for even the most modest collectors' budgets. There were also quite a number of younger collectors there which is always nice to see. Lots of paper money folks there too, with some collectors just pouring over piles of large and small sized notes alike! I also saw a few nice early eagles, one was an 1797 small eagle, and another was a raw 1801 that seemed more heavily polished than usual for the series. Lots of fun stuff, the only other thing I noticed was that Pinnacle (is it Mark that works there?) had a table with a note saying they regretted not being able to send a team due to a scheduling conflict.

[Beijim]

BTW, I did really enjoy the story about the dealer and his well-heeled cllient. I also particularly like your question to the ANA fellow. It sounds like something I would ask. Kudos for sticking to your principles. And regarding finally joining the ANA, remember this:

 

If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy floating by.

 

Regards,

Beijim

 

[Wihlborg]

Beijim,

 

He didn't buy any coins, that I recall

 

You need to work on your sales pitch my friend!

 

John

 

[Beijim]

You need to work on your sales pitch my friend!

 

Heh heh, you got that right, John! I had to tie the anecdote into coin collecting somehow, so I threw that in. It was a bit of a stretch. Though you never know - Gates could be a closet collector and maybe the guy who bought the 1933 Saint.

 

Speaking of which, is the identity of that person known yet?

 

Beijim

 

[Wihlborg]

Not that I have heard. It's being kept pretty hush hush. Would I like to know just for the heck of it? Sure. Do I really care who owns it? No, it doesn’t change my life!

 

John

 

[Nysoto]

Great show report, congrats on your NEWPS. I was there Friday afternoon, sold a couple of gold Sovereigns and bought a couple of bust halves, 1831 NGC MS61 and 1834 PCGS AU55. I bought the 1834 from the same commem dealer you dealt with, this was an exceptional bust half with great toning. I met with a local BHNC member and we talked bust halves for an hour.

 

I came back on Sunday with my wife and three children. The YN program was fantastic. There was a treasure hunt which consisted of going to 12 different dealers and answering a trivia question to collect the treasure. My children each got an IHC, liberty and buffalo nickel, mercury dime, pre '63 Washington quarter, Franklin half, notgeld, cent planchet, a foreign coin, and an ANA coffee mug! It was great fun for all of us.

 

Bill