Norcal/Fremont Coin show report & some dealer habits that bug me.

[truthteller]

Very nice small show. Located at the Elks Lodge in Fremont. Nicely attended by local dealers, about 35-40 tables. Very active attendance for the first 4-5 hours. I brought a small box of accumulated coins ranging from low grade unc commems to a few better date quarters in high grade. I managed to sell about 90% of what I wanted for a tad less than asking price. I purchased a couple of better date Mexican coins. Overall, there was business to be done, but mostly in the $200 to $700 price range. This tends to be a collector's show, nicely arranged and set up. Food was available for a reasonble price. I enjoyed the drive and show and was pleased with purchases.

 

 

Overall grade B-

 

 

Stuff that some coin dealers(and collector's) do that bug me.

 

1) Why do buyers whine about the coin not being in a holder? Sometimes a coin is bought and sold on it's merits and not because of a holder. Mostly, dealers who are not sure of their own grading skills will whine endlessly about this. Old school dealers and collectors have no problems buying raw coins. Sometimes the holder is a handicap and some dealers/collectors are incapable of grading a coin.

 

2) Please, do not throw a coin that does not belong to you. Once you own it, you can chuck it as far as you wish.

 

3) Please do not ask to look at coins if you never are going to buy anything. I have known dealers for years; sometimes they want first shot, but never buy. Please purchase lots and lots of coins, then you will get first shot.

 

4) Badmouthing other people's coins to get a lower price is strictly "verboten".

 

5) When a seller says it's the "best price", no more negotiating. It's bugs me to continue.

 

6) A good tip for dealers who sell retail. Always offer to buy coins back if your customer wants to sell, even if it's much less than what he/she paid.. If you tell a customer "pass" on coins you have sold in the past, the customer gets pissed, and will likely never buy from you again. I was at a table where a good customer offered coins back to the original selling dealer, and the dealer passed without a quote. That customer was not happy. It's just good business.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[supertooth]

Truth----As usual, very well said. Excellent report and suggestions. Bob [supertooth]

[ldhair]

It gets me to see folks throw coins back and forth over display cases. Never understood this.

Once saw a guy actually throw a coin at the dealer.

It hit the dealer behind that dealer in the back.

 

#4 can get you on the bad side of a dealer in a hurry.

Sometimes it's best not to say how you feel about a coin.

A nice thank you can be safer than the truth.

[chinook]

All very good points Truth.

 

I, too, have seen all the above at shows.

[JamminJ]

Nice report, you're back in old form. Grade for your report: B+.

 

Have you ever graded a sjow higher then B-?

[truthteller]

Nice report, you're back in old form. Grade for your report: B+.

 

Have you ever graded a sjow higher then B-?

 

 

Yes. From the period of 1975 through 1994, many coin shows were in the grade "A" range. For example, in the 1970's, there used to be a "Queen Mary" show held in Long Beach on the Queen Mary ship. The coin show was held in the grand ballroom and was well attended by dealers from all over the country. It had about 75 dealer tables and coins were actually "fun" to buy, with huge varieties always available. In addition, the Queen Mary had oodles of attractions to see and do for part of the day. During the run up in the 1979-1980 era. the Jack Tar show in SF was a quite enjoyable and well attended on a regular basis. Although it was in the heart of SF, I fought the traffic and looked forward to seeing and buying tons of collector coins. Rarely was this show less than a "B". Furthermore, from 1980-1985, the Marin County show in San Raphael, CA, had great collector attendance was was always a "good" show. By the mid 1980's, Long Beach had become a absolutely gangbuster event. The hall was double the size it is today with literally 1000 tables and a long waiting list. Dealers from all over the world would attend Long Beach and it was literally a 5 day show. I remember buying at one end of the bourse and selling on the other end, selling most, if not all, of my purchases. If one had the gumption to hustle, he/she could make thousands of $ each day just flipping coins, even at the low point in the market, 1991-1995. Those shows were "A" shows. However, as soon as coins became major "investments", the demise of the "A" collector coin show was soon to follow. For me, the last "A" show was 2004 Pittsburgh ANA, and the last "A" show in CA was 2001 Santa Clara.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[braddick]

"Overall grade, B-."

 

[Tradedollarnut]

For me, the last "A" show was 2004 Pittsburgh ANA

 

That was indeed a great show.

[IGWT]

As always, I enjoyed your report, Truth. It's also very interesting to read about the ebb and flow of shows over the past few years.

 

However, as soon as coins became major "investments", the demise of the "A" collector coin show was soon to follow.

 

Three questions: (1) what do you mean by "major 'investments,'" (2) what drove the market from collecting to "investing," and (3) why did this change affect the quality of coin shows?

[Merc]

Throwing coins is the worst. I can't stand to see that. You risk damaging the coin plus it shows you have no respect.

 

I've looked at coins even when there was no way I could buy them. Usually that happens when a dealer has some time and no customers. I'll start a conversation and they often have an interesting coin they want to show me. I'll thank them for their time and move on.

[truthteller]

As always, I enjoyed your report, Truth. It's also very interesting to read about the ebb and flow of shows over the past few years.

 

However, as soon as coins became major "investments", the demise of the "A" collector coin show was soon to follow.

 

Three questions: (1) what do you mean by "major 'investments,'" (2) what drove the market from collecting to "investing," and (3) why did this change affect the quality of coin shows?

 

 

I answer number (2) first.

 

In a simple statement, electronic trading in slabs killed the coin hobby. With the inception of TPG, coins had a guarantee to grade and authenticity. While in the altruistic sense, it is a good thing. However, being in a capitalistic nation, money was to be made. With sight unseen trading, coins became a wanabee wall street investment, and wall street investment houses were highly solicited in the late 1980's for new money making ventures. I remember very clearly, collectors being absolutely "shut out" financially from the collectible coins. Many high grade US coins were simple sold and resold on speculation without ever reaching the hands of a end user collector, simply sold over networks from dealer to dealer. When wallstreet money dried up, so did the coin market. The collector who had been the backbone of the hobby was now treated poorly, sometimes humiliated because he/she could not keep up financially with rising prices. By 1992, dealers were desperate for the return of the collector, but the damage had been done and collectors never forgot about these events. The same could be said today. Money from "outside" the coin market is coming in. Investment groups are bringing prices for really nice collector coins to new heights. This will end, and, in my opinion, badly. However, the true old school dealers have learned from past mistakes and are diligent to keep the collector as a valued client, since all the investment money will alwaya come and go.

 

Number (1)

 

In my opinion, a major investment today are coins valued $10K and above. In addition, an investment is a coin which substantially drops in value from one grade point to another or rises dramatically from one grade point to another. These are coins that are potentially major money makers or major money losers.

 

Number (3)

 

Auctions and ebay spurred the demise of many coin shows. These days, a "good" local show is busy from 10AM to 2PM, the first day. In the "old days", the show was busy from opening bell to 5 PM, everyday. For major shows, such as Long Beach, dealer day and the following day until 2PM is active, then, for me, the show is over. Most "super" coins are sold well ahead of the larger shows in hotel rooms or over the phone, so the smaller collector with limited funds never sees the quality material. In addition, ebay and auctions allow collectors to bid at home in their pajamas rather than attend an auction. I remember back when Heritage and Superior started with website bidding. I would view the coins in SoCal, then bid live by computer in the comfort of my home. Rarely is an auction room filled with floor bidders. Only when a major collection is for sale, do the floor bidders come out. Internet access also allows "viewing" of coins in cyberspace. No need to actually have the coin in hand, so the show, coin shop visit, or auction has become a dinosaur.

 

 

TRUTH

[TomB]

Thank you for taking the time to write the report. I have seen each of your pet peeves listed above and am always amazed that this behavior not only continues, but that it doesn't earn more people the boot.

[michael]

great report!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

the more things change the more they stay the same

[JamminJ]

Truly excellent commentary, truth,thanks for sharing. Five star thread.

[Merc]

Is it a bad thing that auctions and ebay have diminished the coin shows? Before, the only way to buy coins was to go to a show. That could be miles of travel for the chance of finding the coins you wanted. That can be a large expense by itself. Then your selection was limited to what the dealers brought to sell. I guess if you went to the major shows, you could find about all you needed. Plus there are the major auctions at the large shows.

 

I’m a younger guy, so I have to ask; was it easier to buy coins for fair prices at shows before the internet and internet auctions? I was only a kid then and didn’t buy the expensive coins.

[truthteller]

Is it a bad thing that auctions and ebay have diminished the coin shows? Before, the only way to buy coins was to go to a show. That could be miles of travel for the chance of finding the coins you wanted. That can be a large expense by itself. Then your selection was limited to what the dealers brought to sell. I guess if you went to the major shows, you could find about all you needed. Plus there are the major auctions at the large shows.

 

I’m a younger guy, so I have to ask; was it easier to buy coins for fair prices at shows before the internet and internet auctions? I was only a kid then and didn’t buy the expensive coins.

 

 

Well, it's rather a stage of the hobby development of what is easier and less fun or more difficult and a fun social experience. Ebay brings out good prices for coins and esoteric items and ebay has opened the door to people in faraway places to buy collectibles that interests them. However, it is rather anonymous and non social way of collecting. There is only one coin show in my immediate area once a year with a grand total of 7 dealers attending. If I were in South Dakota, I would say that this show was not the most fascinating way of purchasing coins. However, some of the nation's best coins shows occur within 200 miles of me, a drive that is well worth the time and trouble. Of course, my drives are with pleasant ocean and mountain views. I am sure a 200 mile drive across the Kansas plains would seem more like work. In addition, a major coin show has great social interaction. I meet with dealers and talk about family, common interests as well as coins. So, fair prices, negotiations, purchases and social interaction make a coin show a pleasant endeavor. The internet will find you what you want, for a price, but not necessarily the cheapest. So, to answer the question, at coin shows, I have purchased items far below market because the seller had not put the item on ebay.

And, at coin shows of years ago, information was key since a dealer would buy at a certain level, only buy for a certain timeframe and from certain people; information that only a few people knew, providing locked-in profits for knowledgeable dealers/collectors. On the other hand, auctions of long ago were long endeavors. Hours of waiting for your lots to come up, then getting outbid 90% of the time. On several occasions, I would stay until 2AM attending Heritage auctions waiting for my lots to appear. Today's auction are FAR more efficient and provide the consignors with much higher bids.

 

 

TRUTH

[James_OldeTowne]

((( Why do buyers whine about the coin not being in a holder? )))

 

Whenever someone complains to me about a coin not being certified, I patiently explained that many collectors have outgrown the limitations of certification, and let them puzzle over that one for a while.

 

Great show report!

 

James

[IGWT]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions, Truth. Enlightening.

[kranky]

Very nice show report which morphed into a very informative discussion!

[John Martinez]

Even though I'm new to collecting, I have a great deal of respect in handling coins, especially other people's coins. I guess it comes from having a show vehicle. I cringe when someone rubs their fingers or hands over my paint job to see if the underlying graphics are smooth.

TreeTop

[Oldtrader3]

Truth: I also used to attend the Queen Mary, Long Beach Shows back in the late 70's and early 80's. I also was collecting Winchesters then and some coin shows were concurrent with gun shows. They were more fun and huge! I was collecting Morgans and Peace dollars then and sometimes could turn show purchase coins (or rifles) and walk out with higher grade coins for the same money just while perusing the bourse. The last big show where I found bourse coins to buy outside of auctions was Salt Lake City ANA several years ago.

 

Recent years have not produced much high end merchandise at shows. Many are a waste of time. I went to San Jose and others and sometimes never found or bought a single coin, despite money in my pocket. I rely mostly now on auctions. Shows in Washington State are pretty desolate with no good material for my venues.