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What will happen to Michael

Started by IGWT,

What will happen to Michael for Speaking Out  

159 members have voted

  1. 1. What will happen to Michael for Speaking Out

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121 posts in this topic

braddick

braddick

Posted
Posted

I strongly disagree with him.

I've spoken to any number of high submitters that use and send in bulk regularly and if anything they'll tell you it's been absolutely brutal this year.

 

I know of one that has jumped ship and now is using NGC exclusively.

 

Not only was the format incorrect in Michael presenting his statement/objection but I believe he's also wrong with his assessment.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Not only was the format incorrect in Michael presenting his statement/objection but I believe he's also wrong with his assessment.
Pat, much of what I posted in that thread on the CU forum (see below), was not necessarily very different from what Michael probably meant. It was just worded and focused differently. So, I will ask you, do you disagree with what I wrote? If so, how? Thanks.

 

David, rightly or wrongly, many collectors and dealers are of the BELIEF that bulk submitters (even without their identities being known to the major grading companies) get breaks in grading.

 

It might be due to something as simple as the very large numbers of coins involved, which inevitably lead to more over-graded coins (and, to be fair possibly more under-graded ones too) than in smaller, non-bulk submissions. The coins that appear to be optimistically graded are the ones more likely to receive attention, as the conservatively graded ones usually get cracked out and/or sent elsewhere.

 

If you start requiring posters to PROVE their opinions/perceptions, in order to remain forum members, the forum will become quite small

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truthteller

truthteller

Posted
Posted
I strongly disagree with him.

I've spoken to any number of high submitters that use and send in bulk regularly and if anything they'll tell you it's been absolutely brutal this year.

 

I know of one that has jumped ship and now is using NGC exclusively.

 

Not only was the format incorrect in Michael presenting his statement/objection but I believe he's also wrong with his assessment.

 

 

Years ago, when the PCGS forum first started, many submitting dealers had "loose lips", only for information to leak it's way onto the forum. Let's just say, you might be right or you might be wrong. wink.gif An involved search of the 2000/2001 PCGS forums might be beneficial

 

 

 

TRUTH

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braddick

braddick

Posted
Posted

Mark, I'd have to first disagree with your premise that the message you wrote is identical to Michael's.

 

Secondly, you hedge your statement to a point where your position is not solid one way or another. Safe, but nothing revealing.

 

Lastly, Michael did not simply state an opinion. He wrote what reads as a factual statement. One that is calling PCGS out and would, if true, be outing them as committing fraud.

 

Please keep in mind I am no fan of PCGS. I haven't submitted to them in over two years for professional and personal reasons. NGC and ANACS are my Services of choice (although I do buy and sell PCGS coins). With that said, no business, including PCGS should be placed where others could read a statement from a respected collector that hurts their reputation and could cost them business- especially when it is being made on a forum that is bought and paid for by that business, namely, PCGS!

 

And again, it isn't just the message, it's who offered the message. To parrot what I stated above, had any number of other members posted the same message it would not carry nearly the weight and would have been fluffed off as nothing but drivel. Michael's excellent reputation places him in a position where extra care needs to be applied in the statements he makes.

 

Can you image if you, Mark Feld (or, TomB, or Jom, or Greg, or TRUTH, or any number of other members here),a highly respected (if not actually the most repsected!) dealer came on here and stated, in essence, "NGC overgrades coins as a gift to bulk/favored submitters".

 

I've got to imagine, wthout a follow up of some type of evidence/proof NGC would be rightly tee'ed off.

 

Honestly, wouldn't you?

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chinook

chinook

Posted
Posted

The most interesting thing I found about the thread is that Hall responded within 12 minutes of Michael's post. Am I to believe that he is just sitting around with nothing better to do than read our drivel?

 

Someone must have alerted him to the thread. Almost like, "Mommy!! Mommy!! Michael called me a bad name." I dont think I have ever seen a quicker response.

He obviously caught someones gander.

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rexcat

rexcat

Posted
Posted
The most interesting thing I found about the thread is that Hall responded within 12 minutes of Michael's post. Am I to believe that he is just sitting around with nothing better to do than read our drivel?

 

Someone must have alerted him to the thread. Almost like, "Mommy!! Mommy!! Michael called me a bad name." I dont think I have ever seen a quicker response.

He obviously caught someones gander.

 

That would be his moonies headbang.gif

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

The reality is that: for average collectors who submit to PCGS, grading is pretty consistantly conservative. Yet, if you purchase many PCGS slabs over the course of several years from dealers, you will find noticable variation in grading, especially for modern coins and large, more famous collections. The only way to explain these inconsistancies is that PCGS has a double standard for grading. Nothing else holds up under close scutiny. As others have said, there is no way to conclusively prove this because grading is somewhat subjective. This conclusion is just my own opinion, backed up by many purchases and years of collecting.

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truthteller

truthteller

Posted
Posted

"The most interesting thing I found about the thread is that Hall responded within 12 minutes of Michael's post."

 

 

Well, there is a rumor that there is an "official" snitch on the PCGS forums. He/she likes to get people in trouble with other dealers as well.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Mark, I'd have to first disagree with your premise that the message you wrote is identical to Michael's.

 

Secondly, you hedge your statement to a point where your position is not solid one way or another. Safe, but nothing revealing.

 

Lastly, Michael did not simply state an opinion. He wrote what reads as a factual statement. One that is calling PCGS out and would, if true, be outing them as committing fraud.

 

Please keep in mind I am no fan of PCGS. I haven't submitted to them in over two years for professional and personal reasons. NGC and ANACS are my Services of choice (although I do buy and sell PCGS coins). With that said, no business, including PCGS should be placed where others could read a statement from a respected collector that hurts their reputation and could cost them business- especially when it is being made on a forum that is bought and paid for by that business, namely, PCGS!

 

And again, it isn't just the message, it's who offered the message. To parrot what I stated above, had any number of other members posted the same message it would not carry nearly the weight and would have been fluffed off as nothing but drivel. Michael's excellent reputation places him in a position where extra care needs to be applied in the statements he makes.

 

Can you image if you, Mark Feld (or, TomB, or Jom, or Greg, or TRUTH, or any number of other members here),a highly respected (if not actually the most repsected!) dealer came on here and stated, in essence, "NGC overgrades coins as a gift to bulk/favored submitters".

 

I've got to imagine, wthout a follow up of some type of evidence/proof NGC would be rightly tee'ed off.

 

Honestly, wouldn't you?

 

Pat, a few points in reply to your fine post above:

 

1) I did not say or imply in any way that Michael's message was "identical" to mine. In fact, I started out by saying

Pat, much of what I posted in that thread on the CU forum (see below), was not necessarily very different from what Michael probably meant.
That's very different from "identical".

 

I, like you, was trying to get into Michael's head. To some extent, we (as well as others, including Mr. Hall) were only guessing at his thinking, intent and meaning. That is part of the objection I had with Mr. Hall's swift and harsh reaction based upon such somewhat ambiguous comments. That does not mean I didn't understand it, though.

 

Now I'm going to go easier on you... wink.gif

 

2) While Michael's post might read like a factual statement, I believe it was an opinion, just as many posters' opinions read like statements.

 

3) I understand and respect your viewpoints, however. I am especially interested in the concept that "extra care needs to be applied" when a well respected poster is involved and "it isn't just the message, it's who offered the message". I'd have to think on that before I would commit to agreeing or disagreeing, but either way, it's something worth pondering.juggle.gif

 

Thanks for an interesting discourse.

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supertooth

supertooth

Posted
Posted

Charlie----Thanks for putting it just perfectly.

Truth----Would think that someone would have to be viewing the PCGS boards for a reply to be made soooo quickly. Snitch or at least a secretary----someone with DH's interests at heart. Borders on a little PARANOIA if you ask me.

NGC folks---- I am about to send in another submission----Proves that you are indeed number 1 in my book of TPGS. Bob [supertooth]

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted

Michael, you don't have to prove anything...........you don't have to retract anything.............you don't have to leave anything! Any way you slice it, DH is going to look bad because he opened his mouth in a fit of anger without thinking of the consequences. No matter what he does, he will look foolish and you will still be............................ MICHAEL!

 

Chris

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

Frankly, I don't give a damn if he posts to the PCGS board ever again...or whether he stays. As long as he posts here....

 

As to Pat's point: I can see where you are coming from but I suspect that Michael may know some things that can "prove" what he said. However, it may be difficult to actually prove it without naming names...so to speak.

 

However, like jtryka pointed out since Michael has yet to saying anything about this it's all just speculation and mind-reading. wink.gif

 

jom

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michael

michael

Posted
Posted

do you know the one thing that is common with all people and societies throughout history??

 

snitches devil.gif and rats devil.gif

 

 

 

one of the worst things you can be is a snitch devil.gif or a rat devil.gif

 

just like the snitches devil.gif and rats devil.gif during the german occupation of france and in the POW camps

 

 

 

people in glass houses should not throw stones

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