What is a recut date?

[midwest]

I am watching this 1859 Indian Head cent wich is labeled on the holder as "recut date". What is a recut date and does this add any value?

[michael]

great question and i hope that one of the die variety specialists can give a good answer for this

[Hoot]

By the time the 1859 cent was produced, the date waws part of the master hub. However, not all transfers were completely successful, and often one device or another on the coin was weakly impressed to working dies. If the date was one of those devices, then the date would be tooled in the die and "re-cut" by hand. This often gave a non-uniform appearance to the numerals of the date and thus gave away the engraver's tooling.

 

Hoot

[midwest]

By the time the 1859 cent was produced, the date waws part of the master hub. However, not all transfers were completely successful, and often one device or another on the coin was weakly impressed to working dies. If the date was one of those devices, then the date would be tooled in the die and "re-cut" by hand. This often gave a non-uniform appearance to the numerals of the date and thus gave away the engraver's tooling.

 

Hoot

 

Thanks for the answer. So does this give a coin any extra value? Also is there any way to maybe identify it as in is there a numbering system for recut dates?

[IGWT]

"Recut date" is often a loosely used term to refer to a doubled date regardless of whether the doubling is the result of engraving (cutting) or punching. "A doubled date is defined as: A date on a coin which was formed with one or more of the digits which were cut, punched, or hubbed over the same digit or digis in the die, so that all or parts of each image of the digits show on the struck coin." A. Hebert, Mint Errors, at 99 (6th ed. 2002). I trust that you can see the doubling under a loupe.

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Hoot (though I'm willing to be corrected) that the date was transferred from the galvano to the master hub in the mid-19th century. Master hubs were generally used for more than a single year barring any intentional change in the design of the coin. Instead, the date was "punched" into the working dies with a logotype punch (usually a 4-digit punch). Sometimes the punch was placed too far north or south and less commonly too far east or west. The die maker would try to grind/polish the error, but end up with some of the original date remaining, and then repunch the date. Or, sometimes more than one strike was required to punch the date deeply enough, and the punch would shift between blows.

 

The traditional term "recut" is used to describe "repunched" dates, including those on Indian Cents. I don't collect Indian Cents, so I don't have one of the books that attributes varieties, e.g., R. Snow, 2 The Flying Cent and Indian Cent Attribution Guide 1859-1869 (2nd ed.) Link. Maybe you have a plate coin You also might want to look at FS-006.2, -006.3 and -006.35 in The Cherrypickers' Guide to try to attribute the coin.

 

The CPG reports, "All 1859 repunched dates [for Indian Cents] are scarce to rare and highly sought." The FS-006.2 cross-references to Snow-2, Breen 1945; the FS-006.3 cross-references to Snow-1, Breen N/L; and the FS-006.35 cross-references to Snow-3, Breen 1947.

 

[Die Varieties]

I agree with IGWT.

 

Good luck.

[RWB]

Regarding Recut Dates.

The various comments about how recut dates (or other recut design elements) occur might need a bit of updating based on historical U.S. Mint documents from which the following is compiled and summarized.

 

1. Reducing lathes of various quality were used by the Philadelphia Mint during the nineteenth century. None of these machines was of sufficient quality to produce a complete, coin-sized master hub from a large-scale model or copper electroshell (galvano). The best they could do was reduce the central portrait to the correct size in cutting the hub (raised design). The mint engraver then retouched the portrait until the detail was to his liking.

2. The portrait hub was hardened and used to impress a master die (incuse design). Into this die were impressed by means of device punches a two, three, or four digit date logo, stars, other ornaments and sometimes, inscriptions. As late as 1877, Mint Bureau Special Engraver George Morgan had to delay working dies for his pattern silver dollar because Philadelphia Mint Assistant Engraver William Key had not finished making a Gothic-style inscription punch for the motto “In God We Trust.” Most date punches carried three digits, but there was no standard.

3. The master die (called a “mother die” by Philadelphia Mint Engraver William Barber) was hardened then used to make several production hubs (raised design). Each hub could be used to make multiple working dies (incuse design) and it is into these working dies that often (but not always) the last digit(s) was (were) punched.

4. Punches were also used to strengthen digits and stars, and this process may account for many of the recut dates seen on minor coins.

5. Working dies took from three to ten blows of the press to produce. Between blows the die had to be annealed to remove work-hardening. The slow cooling necessary resulted in each die receiving only one or, at most, two blows per work day. This, when combined with a limit of approximately ten blows per day for any one working hub restricted die production (again, due to heating). Typically, it took six to ten work days to complete one standard silver dollar working die. Some recut dates on Morgan dollars and other silver coins may have resulted from the use of previous year’s working hubs for one or more of the blows necessary to create a complete working die, as occurred on the 1909 $20, 1918/7 quarters and nickels, 1942/1 dimes and others.

 

I hope the above is helpful. Enjoy the hobby – there are probably plenty of recut dates left to discover!

 

(PS: It was not until the Barber/Morgan $20 pattern of 1906 that a U.S. Mint sample coin was struck from complete, mechanically-reduced hubs. This was followed in February 1907 by the Saint-Gaudens extremely high relief gold $20 patterns.)

[IGWT]

Hi RWB --

 

I'd welcome you aboard, but I just got here myself . . . so I'll just say hello. I've tried to learn as much as I can about the minting process in the mid-19th century; and, in fact, I've undertaken to collect a set that teaches lessons about the process during that period. Those lessons only go so far -- it's probably wrong to extrapolate and apply those lessons generally to all coinage of the era. Also, I find it difficult to research the issues. Most of the information available are secondary sources that do not cite to original sources, and I've reached the unhappy conclusion that many "authoritative statements" are just best guesses or, even worse, old wives' tales. I'm not sure how to get my hands on the documents that I need to perform actual research.

 

Your post is very interesting and refers to original source materials from the mint. I was wondering if you could provide advice on how to research any particular area of interest pertaining to the minting process. (I've already done what I can over the internet, including obtaining indices of mint documents from the National Archives.) Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[Hoot]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Hoot (though I'm willing to be corrected) that the date was transferred from the galvano to the master hub in the mid-19th century.

 

This is excellent. I do stand corrected and I'm quite happy for it. I guess I could say that I had a moment of bad recall im my original post, but I sometimes simply get confused, as was the case. I had recalled that there had been several attempts to make master dies with stars, letter devices (UNITED STATES OF AMERICA), and full wreaths in the early part of the 19th century, but they had failed in transferring full devices to working hubs, then dies. (And please, correct me if I'm wrong about that tidbit.) This was particularly the case for experiments with large cents, but I do not know if it was also tried for some of the other large-size denominations.

 

From 1836, the Mint used the French portrait lathe that could make reductions from original casts that were up to 6 inches in diameter. The Hill reduction lathe was introduced in 1868 and was a vast improvement over the portrait lathe. The finness of the image transfer was reportedly much better and it could accept larger originals. Longacre negotiated its purchase for more than a year. I am reminded that the Janvier reducing lathe was the first reducing lathe of quality enought to make the full-scale reduction to the master hub, and that was (as RWB pointed out) introduced in 1906.

 

I think it's great when a thread can bring out better information! Sometimes being wrong is the best thing...

 

By the way, Don Taxay's The U.S. Mint and Coinage is a great reference, as is George Evans' Illustrated History of the United States Mint (AKA, U.S. Mint Centennial, 1792-1892).

 

Hoot

[Hoot]

I made a few essential edits to my last post based on some refresher reading I did last night. The info may be of interest to those who like a bit of Mint history.

 

Sometimes I feel like I simply have to sit down and memorize Taxay!

 

Hoot

[IGWT]

Thanks for the recommended reading, Hoot.

[RWB]

IGWT and NGC friends.

Numismatic research - that is, increasing our overall knowledge and understanding of coin design, production, distribution - is, and will always be a collective effort. Each person contributes what they have discovered or believe to be correct, and others add their ideas, support, contrarian or documentary evidence. Because research is very time consuming, it is not something that major dealers and auction houses support except as it is ancillary to their immediate business. Even then, much modern "research" is really a rewording of original work done many years ago. A further difficulty is that hobby publishers must appeal to a generalist market if they are to sell enough books to make a profit. What they do is often very good, but it is also commercially bounded. Over time, it is hoped that an accurate, balanced description of events and processes results from the collaboration.

 

I make no claim that the comments in a previous posting are definitive or apply to all cases. The engraving department at the Philadelphia Mint was the private fiefdom of the engraver and many things were done at the convenience of the moment. There were few standards, at least as we might recognize them in a modern production plant, and the engraver might suddenly change things. There are quite a few mint documents where the branch mint superintendents complain of the Philadelphia Mint unexpectedly changing the radius (curvature) of working dies shipped to the branches. This caused huge delays and waste because the upsetting angel and diameter of planchets had to match the die radius, yet this happened repeatedly during the tenure of engraver Charles Barber.

 

As for research, I can only present my own experience and hope you can adapt it or make some use of my comments and methods. First, as you have found, the internet is a very limited resource when it comes to American numismatic research. Most sites simply copy each other. Where there is something original, it is probably presented without references – you have no way to tell where the information originated. The NARA on-line listing of US Mint archives (record group 104) does not match what is actually in the finding aids at the various repositories. (Mint documents were scattered amongst at least seven separate NARA locations around the country about 15 years ago. The purpose was to make documents relevant to a locality available near that location. Thus, San Francisco Mint documents went to the San Bruno NARA facility, etc.)

 

The first step would be to decide what topic you wish to research. Use the on-line list to narrow the probable archive file numbers to some set of call numbers (use the same layout as NARA does on the web site). Determine where these documents are stored. The on-line information may help, or you may have to call the nearest NARA facility to find out. Once you know where the documents probably “live,” contact that facility and ask for a copy of the finding aid for the items of interest. If this looks promising, then schedule a visit to the facility. Be prepared to have to register the first time you enter a NARA facility. Also be prepared to manually look through hundreds or thousands of pages – many in poor condition – and piles of ledger books with covers that turn your hands orange from the deteriorating leather bindings. With luck, you will find pieces of what you want, and maybe find indications of where additional information might be found. If it is “not your lucky day” you will find dead silverfish, rusted paper clips and lots of letters from citizens asking what their “real old half dollar” is worth.

 

There is obviously much more that could be said, but I have probably bored IGWT and others into becoming stamp collectors….

[IGWT]

Very helpful, RWB, and far from boring; thank you! I was wondering, though . . . do you have to wear one of those special suits that protect against chemical/biological contamination when looking at the documents?

[chinook]

Here is a picture of a recut date.

[RWB]

I doubt they'd let you in wearing a chem/bio suit and respirator, however I have seen folks wearing dust masks. The old account books have leather covers that are in various stages of decomposition. They produce orange powder that gets on everything in your work area, clothing, etc.

 

Good luck in your research!