Indian Head cent expertise requested: 1869/8 (?)

[James_OldeTowne]

I have noticed that there are several apparent "overdates" mentioned for the 1869 Indian Head cent. Are they really different varieties? Or do they refer to the same thing?? I've seen 1869/9, 1869/8, 1869 repunched date, 1869/1869, etc.

 

I do not have the Snow book, so any advice will be appreciated. I am most interested in what is referred to as "1869/8".

 

James

[Newmismatist]

Rick Snow is very knowledgeable with these varieties - Try contacting him - he is very helpful - mention I referred you - he's a good friend and very generous with his help on IHCs (try his website www.indiancent.com) - there may be some info there

[TomB]

Newmismatist is correct, as per usual, but you may also want to try contacting shylock (Paul) as he knows a ton about this series, is a great guy and is also quite generous with his time and knowledge.

[goose3]

Oooops

[goose3]

I believe there may actually be a post over on the FLY IN forum about this and if I recall, there is no overdate for 1869....only a repunched 9.

 

 

I will pose your question over there and get back with you with an answer if I get one. I'd give you the URL but it's a members only thing.

[James_OldeTowne]

John,

 

I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

 

James

[michael]

in my opinion

 

 

 

it is a die stage of a repunched 9/9

 

now i will admit that it is a controversial coin

 

and currently the major services will not certify these coins as an overdate

 

since the coin game is always in a state of flux maybe one day it will be declaired as an overdate

 

but for me in my research and from what i have seen and observed it is NOT AN OVERDATE but i am no expert

 

but the jury is still out and who knows what the true coin experts/grading services will say or do in the future

[AmericanCopper-migration]

Hi James

 

New to the board and since I own one of the few NGC 1869/69 MS66RB's thought I would share what little I know about the coin as a way of introduction. First, it is, as it now stands, (and this seems to be definitive), it is a repunched 9 on a working die that likely was mostly through the bulk of it's working life before the date was repunched. The confusion whether it is an 1869/8 or 1869/69 may be attributed Longacre's doubling from the softness of the working die and the composition of the copper being used by the Mint during this period of time, often making it difficult to distinguish the correct attribution on darker toned and or corroded specimens. (if you collect Indianhead cents, you know the bulk of 1869 suffer from major corrosion problems.) As this variety became recognized as a varient, old collections were scoured for it and in the last few years a few rare examples in high MS grade surfaced and brought to the attention of knowledgeable numismatists who had mint-state examples to study, and they have pretty much agreed the coin is not an overdate, (eliminates the 1869/8), but a repunched date. Most likely, the 1868 date was thrown out there for consideration early on in the determining of attribution by someone who only had corroded specimens to work with. (remember, there would be few specimens availabe for study when the variation was first promoted, and if you only had a mid-grade circulated specimen it could be difficult to determine overdate/repunched accurately.)

 

A good number of the coins I have seen (including my own) have a die break on the obverse that runs from the bottom of the ribbon, across the "1" and extending to the rim at 7:00. They also all show significant Longacre's doubling on the dates. Three of the MS66RB's I've seen share these characteristics, so I don't know if this could be a diagnostic for the coin or not. Rick Snow could possibly be of more help than I as he's a recognized expert in 19th century copper. I also noticed that he has one of the 10 NGC 1869/69 MS66RB's listed on his site. Since his is for sale, I'm sure he'll be happy to answer any serious inquiries.

 

Everett

[James_OldeTowne]

First of all, I'd like to welcome Everett (AmericanCopper) to the boards. I hope you keep on posting, since you obviously have a lot of wisdom to share! If you happen to have images of your coins, I would love to see them.

 

Now, the reason for my question is that I'm building my collection in a vintage Whitman album, and it has an opening for "1869/8". I wonder if some of the long-time confusion may have resulted from albums like this, which imply the existence of the variety. As Everett, Michael and John pointed out, it was debunked as an overdate years ago, but my album was manufactured in 1960 when the coin was thought to exist.

 

So, it sounds like the "repunched date" which I recently purchased is indeed the coin I've been looking for. When I get a chance, I'll image it for your opinions.

 

THANKS for the responses. The information was extremely helpful!

 

On a side note, yesterday, I sent Rick Snow an email inquiring as to the availability of one of the final three coins I need. I'll keep you up to date on that as well.

 

James

[Die Varieties]

Great read and I too would like to welcome AmericanCopper to the boards.

[TomB]

Welcome to the boards AmericanCopper, I hope you post more.