1933 1 1

[powermad5000]

Now that I have watched the video and followed the story here, I just want to say that typically coins at this level of worth are not always up for sale and when they are, they are typically not featured in video like this, so for me personally, it was nice to be able to see a coin at this level of greatness in more than just a photo in an article, but to see it actually in video which is the next best thing to seeing it actually in person. I was happy to see this gorgeous coin in the video! Regardless if it does or doesn't sell and if it does, what it does or does not sell for, I personally cannot afford to own it so all I want to say is it sure is a BEAUTFUL coin!

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/6/2024 at 1:21 PM, EliteCollection said:

The $30M is a serious ask. I may not even sell it for $30M and definitely won't sell it for anything less than $30M. The $25M offer is not high at all. After 2021 auction, I learned that there were a couple of people that wanted to bid more but didn't have the liquidity at the time. And since the auction, I have turned down an offer of $20M+. That said, this has nothing to do with whether there is positive appreciation or the current value of the coin though, as no deal has been made.

Thanks for participating in the show, EC.  I do think there was educational value and I hope more people get into coin collecting in general and Double Eagles in particular. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/6/2024 at 1:25 PM, VKurtB said:

This coin is El Numero Uno, of course. But if you examine the prices realized of the Top 100 coins, subsequent sales OFTEN get lower prices than previous ones. Why do you feel you are immune from this possibility? Want to know what it's worth? Put it up for auction with no reserve price.

(1)  It's an American coin. 

(2)  It's WELL KNOWN to wealthy, serious, Big $$$ collectors.  

(3)  It's a gold coin...a Double Eagle...again, well-known to collectors and even non-collectors.  

(4)  It's the ONLY AVAILABLE 1933.  All or most of the other Top 100 you reference probably have multiple coins available in various grades.

I personally would not be surprised to NEVER see the price of this 1933 Double Eagle go down in price, unless the 10 coins in Fort Knox are released.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/7/2024 at 2:27 AM, EliteCollection said:

That's a pretty negative take on things. In my opinion, more exposure is always a good thing. The YouTube video has almost 200k views already. It doesn't need to inspire someone to go out there and buy a 7-figure coin, but I bet it might inspire a few people to go other there and buy a common saint and kickstart their passion in coin collecting.

Couldn't agree more, EC.....I've been saying that for YEARS here and when I found out that you and Ian had that in mind, I am only sorry I couldn't thank you both in person !! 

If not for the 2009 UHR, I probably never hear of DEs !!!   So you never know what stimulus can inspire someone to springboard into a passion for that item...even if most people totally ignore it or maybe stop after 1 or 2 purchases and never look again.

Edited October 8 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/7/2024 at 6:30 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

In my experience not many new collectors, or collectors in general, have the budget or would want to tie up their collecting money into buying a common SGDE, and those that might are probably stackers not collectors. So many better coin choices out there than to spend nearly 3k on a SGDE, but hopefully having the '33 publicized motivates people to collect coins in general. 

Compared to the cost of buying a price-controlled Saint in the 1960's...or an inflated one circa 1980....or even at lower prices but with many not having the $$$ to buy from 1985-2000....I think there are MORE potential buyers today.  Lots of millenials and Gen Z'ers have the $$$ to buy coins IF they want to...and do it for the right reasons (i.e., artistry and the joy of collecting, NOT to make $$$).

My nephew had $30,000 in BitCoin and it isn't 90% or even 50% or even 25% of all his financial assets.  And when I mentioned I might be going to a local coin show in coming months, he expresed interest whereas when I took him 10 years ago when he was in HS/college, he looked bored out of his mind.  But now with a wife, new house, and job....and some $$$ to spend every few months....he's interested in gold and/or gold coins.

Who knows....maybe he took a look at the modern gold Eagle my father gave his only grandson and it piqued his interest !! 

[VKurtB]

On 10/8/2024 at 1:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Lots of millenials and Gen Z'ers have the $$$ to buy coins IF they want to..

Then WHY are they incessantly whining about not being able to move out of their parents’ basement?

[Zebo]

On 10/8/2024 at 3:05 PM, VKurtB said:

Then WHY are they incessantly whining about not being able to move out of their parents’ basement?

Because they like to whine! 

[RWB]

On 10/8/2024 at 2:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Compared to the cost of buying a price-controlled Saint in the 1960's

There was no "price control" in the 1960s. Gold fluctuated on the international market. Saints and Liberties could be bought directly from Swiss banks  or US dealers at a small markup over spot.

[Henri Charriere]

Q.A.:  I cannot see why no one else was completely gobsmacked and blindsided by this Topic...  If you got a big kick out of reading this post featuring a surprise personal appearance by the '33's current owner, hit the LIKE button and be sure to SUBSCRIBE.

🐓  :  This isn't YouTube, Quintus!

Q.A.:  Sorry, I forgot where I was.   This is still a remarkable and most unusual, if you will, serendipitous thread you just don't come across every day on the Chat Board.  I see where even @GoldFinger1969 tuned in to catch it!  Special surprise.

Edited October 8 by Henri Charriere
Die polishing + plus.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/8/2024 at 3:28 PM, Zebo said:

Because they like to whine! 

My nephew likes WINE....brought him a bottle for his new house. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/8/2024 at 3:29 PM, RWB said:

There was no "price control" in the 1960s. Gold fluctuated on the international market. Saints and Liberties could be bought directly from Swiss banks  or US dealers at a small markup over spot.

But the price was artificially held down, tethered to the $35 an ounce "official" price, right ?

[BillJones]

They kept saying that the 1933 double eagle is the most valuable, most desirable coin. The valuable part is probably right, although it's hardly the rarest with 13 of them known.

The most desirable part leaves me out. I think of a lot of coins I’d rather have for a lot less money, starting with a 1794 dollar, an 1802 half dime, a really nice $50 gold slug, the King of Siam Proof set and the St. Gaudens gold pattern coins that I can’t afford, like the Ultra High Relief $20 and the two $10 Indians with the rolled and knife edges.

To me this was promotion for the guy who has it for sale, and the two coin dealers.

Here's one I could afford, and it's a lot prettier than that 1933 double eagle. 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/8/2024 at 4:38 PM, BillJones said:

They kept saying that the 1933 double eagle is the most valuable, most desirable coin. The valuable part is probably right, although it's hardly the rarest with 13 of them known.

But only 1 legal to own which means the market supply is just one.

On 10/8/2024 at 4:38 PM, BillJones said:

The most desirable part leaves me out. I think of a lot of coins I’d rather have for a lot less money, starting with a 1794 dollar, an 1802 half dime, a really nice $50 gold slug, the King of Siam Proof set and the St. Gaudens gold pattern coins that I can’t afford, like the Ultra High Relief $20 and the two $10 Indians with the rolled and knife edges. To me this was promotion for the guy who has it for sale, and the two coin dealers.

Here's one I could afford, and it's a lot prettier than that 1933 double eagle. 

You make some good points.  I think even Elite C. would agree that from an aesthetic perspective, his MCMVII UHR and HR's are more visually appealing.  But you can't NOT look at that 1933 and think of its history and provenance.

Whatever their reasons for doing the show -- and I take them at their word, because EC clearly has some $$$ and if he spends time (and $$$) posting here and elsewhere and also donating the coin for that show and others to display it -- he doesn't have to do that. So I"m glad he posts and makes the coin available in a variety of venues.

Lots of other famous collectors never post on forums....never give interviews....never allow their coins to be shown.  While preserving his anonymity, at least EC has given back to the hobby.  

I for one am glad he has. 

Edited October 9 by GoldFinger1969

[EliteCollection]

Of course, my UHR is a much much prettier coin. For this 1933 $20 DE, Liberty took a nasty fall and scraped her knees badly. That's for sure.  But yes, it's more about the history and provenance and the uniqueness of the coin. Although there are a dozen of them out there including the 2 in the Smithsonian, this is the only coin that was ever monetized and legal to own by anyone. And the government has said that they will only ever monetize this one 1933 $20 DE.

[RWB]

On 10/8/2024 at 3:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But the price was artificially held down, tethered to the $35 an ounce "official" price, right ?

No. $35 per troy ounce was the statutory value and used to settle international trade balances. It had no effect on rare or collectible coins, or bags of common date DE. The only time anyone was paid $35 per ounce was when miners sold their gold bullion to the government, as required, or if someone turned in US gold coins. (US gold coins were no longer money, but merely bullion per the Act of January 31, 1934.)

[Added note: Between April 10, 1933 and August 1933, US gold coins were legitimately used in normal commerce - if someone wanted to do that. The Treasury handled all gold transactions at the statutory value of $20.67677. In September FDR and Morgenthau decided to allow domestic price floating of gold, which immediately rose to about $28. The government paid this international open market price for newly mined gold and $20.67 for US coins. (There was an active market in "high grading" in an attempt to make melted coins look like new gold bullion.) By January 1934 the international value of gold had settled at about $30/oz, so FDR and Morgenthau bumped this to $35 to encourage gold imports into the US. A similar approach was used with silver in June 1934.]

Edited October 9 by RWB

[RWB]

See: Smugglers and “High-Grading” in my book Saudi Gold and other Tales from the Mint. It is mentioned in several other of my publications, also.

Saudi Gold and other Tales from the Mint also presents facts not bias on US and international gold "standards."

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/8/2024 at 4:38 PM, BillJones said:

They kept saying that the 1933 double eagle is the most valuable, most desirable coin. The valuable part is probably right, although it's hardly the rarest with 13 of them known....

It IS the rarest.  If you were to enter that PCGS-encapsulated coin's certification number in the PCGS look-up, you will find, according to their official population records, the '33 is listed as 1/0.  It is so rare -- unique actually, that a slot does not exist for it on any Set Registry!

Edited October 9 by Henri Charriere
Usual die polishing.

[VKurtB]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:00 PM, Henri Charriere said:

It IS the rarest.  If you were to enter that PCGS-encapsulated coin in the PCGS look-up, you will find that, according to their official population records, the '33 is listed as 1/0.  It is so rare -- unique actually, that a slot does not exist for it on any Set Registry.

Let’s do a quick census, shall we?

10 formerly possessed by the Langbord family (intentional choice of verb)

2 at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington

1 in the possession of EC

1 other voluntarily surrendered at the time of the final Langbord decision 

Those are the ones I have personally seen with mine own eyes. There is WIDE consensus among the top uppermost dealers that 2 more exist here in the States, and perhaps one or two overseas. @GoldFinger1969 is correct that only the EC coin is legal to own, … AT THIS TIME. Law is politics. Politics can change. Only legislation is needed to INSTANTLY make the unavailable available. Presto change-o, population likely 18. Working for a legislature changes a guy. It makes, “but the law says” FARRRRR from the last word. Lawyers hate legislative types. Judges don’t care; they make their own laws by judicial fiat, every stinking day.

Edited October 9 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

Thank you for honoring fellow member Zebo's post with your presence and reply with which I am in 100% agreement.  History, as I am fond of saying, is permanently tentative, subject to revision at any time.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/8/2024 at 2:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

My nephew had $30,000 in BitCoin and it isn't 90% or even 50% or even 25% of all his financial assets.  And when I mentioned I might be going to a local coin show in coming months, he expresed interest whereas when I took him 10 years ago when he was in HS/college, he looked bored out of his mind.  But now with a wife, new house, and job....and some $$$ to spend every few months....he's interested in gold and/or gold coins.

Gee, between having some money to burn and going to a coin show with you I have little doubt about what your nephew will be walking out the door with.  Still, you're more describing a stacker not a collector, at least not yet , and someone like your nephew is not the norm, at least not by me. There are possibly more stackers now than previously and I still don't believe that most new collectors are going to start off with SGDE's, other than to stack them, or that publicizing the '33 will motivate collectors to buy into common SGDE's other than one or two for a type set. 

[BillJones]

On 10/8/2024 at 9:00 PM, Henri Charriere said:

It IS the rarest.  If you were to enter that PCGS-encapsulated coin's certification number in the PCGS look-up, you will find, according to their official population records, the '33 is listed as 1/0.  It is so rare -- unique actually, that a slot does not exist for it on any Set Registry!

In that case they are wrong. There are the two pieces in the Smithsonian plus the ten pieces the government confiscated from the Longboard case. That makes a total of 13. It does not matter than that the has 12 of them. 

PCGS is being its egotistical self as usual. They think that the coin universe orbits around them. 

[Henri Charriere]

I could, of course, ask Kurt, Who do you believe, Me or your own Lying Eyes?  But as a practical matter, right now, there is only ONE.  It matters little if the rarity is actual, or created.  The others, wherever they may be, are UNAVAILABLE.  As of today, Wednesday, October 9, 2024, 0933 hours, the Treasury Department, its creator, recognizes just ONE.

If you were to place a bid on the coin at the next auction and attempt to bring up the matter of the "others" still extant, you would be asked, Are you buyin' or crying'?, deemed a disorderly person and removed by management from the premises forthwith.

Trust me, there is only ONE. All else is imagination run amok.

🎶  "Fairytales can come true, it can happen to you... If you're young at heart." 🎵 

[VKurtB]

On 10/9/2024 at 10:40 AM, Henri Charriere said:

I could, of course, ask Kurt, Who do you believe, Me or your own Lying Eyes?  But as a practical matter, right now, there is only ONE.  It matters little if the rarity is actual, or created.  The others, wherever they may be, are UNAVAILABLE.  As of today, Wednesday, October 9, 2024, 0933 hours, the Treasury Department, its creator, recognizes just ONE.

If you were to place a bid on the coin at the next auction and attempt to bring up the matter of the "others" still extant, you would be asked, Are you buyin' or crying'?, deemed a disorderly person and removed by management from the premises forthwith.

Trust me, there is only ONE. All else is imagination run amok.

🎶  "Fairytales can come true, it can happen to you... If you're young at heart." 🎵 

There is only one, of which I have personally seen 14.  Why is it considered non-existent when the government owns it? I can’t own it under current law? Big fat hairy deal! I can’t own the Grand Canyon or the Everglades either. But I can enjoy them. Ownership is an EXCLUSIONARY construct. I can’t “visit” EC’s coin either. But I can from time to time visit 2 others any time I want, and perhaps up to 11 others when the Treasury Dept. decides. I don’t get the artificial distinction. 

Edited October 9 by VKurtB

[EliteCollection]

On 10/9/2024 at 10:28 AM, VKurtB said:

There is only one, of which I have personally seen 14.  Why is it considered non-existent when the government owns it? I can’t own it under current law? Big fat hairy deal! I can’t own the Grand Canyon or the Everglades either. But I can enjoy them. Ownership is an EXCLUSIONARY construct. I can’t “visit” EC’s coin either. But I can from time to time visit 2 others any time I want, and perhaps up to 11 others when the Treasury Dept. decides. I don’t get the artificial distinction. 

Your argument is the same as saying gold is not scarce, because there are likely a billion tonnes of gold in outer space. Only the amount of gold that is ownable today factor into the rarity and price of gold. Sure one day, a gold carrying asteroid can crash onto earth and drop 1M tonnes of gold and 6x the total amount of gold on Earth. That doesn't affect the value of gold today.

Yes, there are about 15 1933 DEs in the world, but only one of them can be legally owned by anyone. That makes it unique. Whether you like this definition of uniquness or not, it makes the coin extremely valuable today.

[VKurtB]

On 10/9/2024 at 1:13 PM, EliteCollection said:

Your argument is the same as saying gold is not scarce, because there are likely a billion tonnes of gold in outer space. Only the amount of gold that is ownable today factor into the rarity and price of gold. Sure one day, a gold carrying asteroid can crash onto earth and drop 1M tonnes of gold and 6x the total amount of gold on Earth. That doesn't affect the value of gold today.

Yes, there are about 15 1933 DEs in the world, but only one of them can be legally owned by anyone. That makes it unique. Whether you like this definition of uniquness or not, it makes the coin extremely valuable today.

Actually, the most frequently estimated number of 1933 DE’s is 20, just those passing through Izzy Switt’s hands. The theory is that he moved half and kept half. The process is to take the “other 10” and determine what happened to them. Did yours pass through Switt’s hands? It’s pretty clear the Smithsonian 2 did not. The voluntarily surrendered one is considered to have passed through Switt’s hands. I forget the details of most of the earlier confiscated ones. This coin does NOT occupy much of my time or attention. You have the luxury of considering your coin “special”. I’d expect nothing less from you. I would too. But I can ignore its existence, and I do. It’s not anything I would care to own if my net worth were in the 11 figures area. 

Yes, your coin is extremely valuable, but not to me. That’s as irrelevant to you as it is true to me.

Edited October 9 by VKurtB

[RWB]

On 10/9/2024 at 8:55 AM, BillJones said:

PCGS is being its egotistical self as usual. They think that the coin universe orbits around them

Yep. Ego and ignorance.

[VKurtB]

On 10/9/2024 at 7:55 AM, BillJones said:

In that case they are wrong. There are the two pieces in the Smithsonian plus the ten pieces the government confiscated from the Longboard case. That makes a total of 13. It does not matter than that the has 12 of them. 

PCGS is being its egotistical self as usual. They think that the coin universe orbits around them. 

You say “confiscated”, I say “recovered”. Every time I drive to the Chicago area on I-65, I can wave to the “10+1” as I pass by Fort Knox. Every one of those 11 are every bit as real as EC’s coin.

Edited October 9 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/8/2024 at 6:53 PM, EliteCollection said:

Of course, my UHR is a much much prettier coin. For this 1933 $20 DE, Liberty took a nasty fall and scraped her knees badly. That's for sure.  But yes, it's more about the history and provenance and the uniqueness of the coin. Although there are a dozen of them out there including the 2 in the Smithsonian, this is the only coin that was ever monetized and legal to own by anyone. And the government has said that they will only ever monetize this one 1933 $20 DE.

Even without the Knee Cap  I don't think the luster on the 1933 is anything close to high-grade MCMVII HRs, let alone the MCMVII UHR you have, right ?  That process for making the UHR that Roger has detailed makes it really unique.

Only you can tell us, since you have the coins in hand.  Not sure the photos I have seen on the 1933 show how nice it looks compared to even an average photo of a HR or an UHR.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/8/2024 at 9:20 PM, VKurtB said:

2 at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington

Can those be SOLD by the government ?  I believe they have done that with other "coins" but technically those might be considered bullion or chattel as they are not "monetized."

 

[VKurtB]

On 10/9/2024 at 3:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can those be SOLD by the government ?  I believe they have done that with other "coins" but technically those might be considered bullion or chattel as they are not "monetized."

 

By enacting legislation, there are at least 13 of them that could be sold. Probably not, but still possible.