Are these coins worth submitting to NGC for grade? 1 1

[Gray Electric]

Hello everyone,

 

 Attached are pictures of 5 coins. Please have a look and provide your opinions of grades and if you would recommend it for NGC submission. I will have other coins to post through the week. My initial impression is to send the gold and the mercury dime in for grading and possibly the draped bust. What would you do? 

1 - 1853 California Colonial Gold 

2 - 1833 Draped Bust Half Dollar 

3 - 1924 Peace Dollar

1919 Liberty Half Dollar

 

 

1945-S Micro S Mercury Dime

Edited June 10 by Gray Electric

[Coinbuf]

I would have to research the value of the Cal gold piece, but it is the only one I would even consider having graded.   The bust half would likely receive a details grade due to the "X" scratched into the obv field, the others are just too low condition to be worth the cost imo.   And just for clarity, the 1924 is a Peace dollar not a Morgan dollar.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 6/9/2024 at 7:36 PM, Coinbuf said:

I would have to research the value of the Cal gold piece, but it is the only one I would even consider having graded.

I agree.

[Sandon]

    None of the pieces you show has sufficient value to be worthy of submission for third-party grading.

    The purported California fractional piece, though dated 1853, does not appear to be a collectible piece made from about 1852-1882, all of which pieces have a denomination expressed as CENTS, DOL., DOLL., or DOLLAR. Non-denominated pieces, which are usually of more modern origin, have little value. See A Guide Book of United States Coins (the "Red Book"), 2023 ed. at pp. 418-19.

    The 1833 Capped Bust half dollar has Very Fine details, with scratches, such as the "X" in the obverse field, and edge damage that would likely preclude the awarding of a numerical grade. It was also unevenly struck and as such is not the most desirable example.  An unimpaired example would have a retail value around $100, this one probably around $60 and certainly not worth a $23 "Economy" tier NGC grading fee, plus related processing and shipping costs.

    The 1924 Peace dollar appears to have About Uncirculated details with a number of pin scratches that would also likely preclude a numerical grade. This coin probably isn't worth more than its current bullion value of around $23, the same as the grading fee alone.

    The 1919-S Walking Liberty half dollar is a better date but grades only Good (G 4 or so), with a retail value of $25-$35 depending on which price list one consults. It's a nice coin for an album, not for a grading service holder that would cost the full retail value of the coin.

    The 1945-S Micro S "Mercury" dime grades no better than Choice Very Fine (VF 30), with an approximate retail value of $5-$6, a small fraction of just the grading fee. 

    Before you even think about submitting coins to third-party grading services, you must know how to grade and otherwise evaluate coins yourself. Only individual coins worth at least several hundred dollars are likely worth the cost of submission. It may take you at least several years to acquire the requisite knowledge and experience.  What books and other resources are you using to learn about coins.

   

   

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:23 PM, Sandon said:

    None of the pieces you show has sufficient value to be worthy of submission for third-party grading.

    A lackluster member response can be attributed to this one statement alone.

The purported California fractional piece, ....

    Fractional or Fictional?  The last time I saw the term BURKA used was in relation to the Afghanistan conflict.  Much like a hijab, it is used to veil both a woman's face and eyes.  It is very crudely struck and the absence of a denomination invites further inquiry.

Before you even think about submitting coins to third-party grading services, you must know how to grade and otherwise evaluate coins yourself. Only individual coins worth at least several hundred dollars are likely worth the cost of submission. It may take you at least several years to acquire the requisite knowledge and experience.  What books and other resources are you using to learn about coins.

     A very odd, eclectic, mix of coins.  The insurmountable fact is, while holdered coins have an esthetic appeal, the majority of coins submitted, when all the costs are tallied up, do not make the option economically feasible. The reason members viewing coins cannot come up with a fixed cost is simply because of the dozen or so variables involved in determining final submission price.  The Submission Form is a binding legal contract. To execute the contract, you must understand the terms used.  

NOTE:  THE ABOVE REPLY IN BOLD ITALICIZED WORDS WERE MEANT FOR THE OP USING SANDON's COMMENTS AS A SPRINGBOARD.  I APOLOGIZE FOR THE CONFUSION.

Edited June 10 by Henri Charriere
Clarification

[Gray Electric]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:53 AM, Henri Charriere said:

NOTE:  THE ABOVE REPLY IN BOLD ITALICIZED WORDS WERE MEANT FOR THE OP USING SANDON's COMMENTS AS A SPRINGBOARD.  I APOLOGIZE FOR THE CONFUSION.

It says EUREKA on the back. Sorry my microscope cam isn't the best and this is really small. Here is something else I found that appears to be same coin, perhaps it gives a little more clarity and allows a comparison. 

Buy 1853 Arms of California Fractional Gold Token MS-63 Octagonal NGC | APMEX

Edited June 10 by Gray Electric
Additional info

[RWB]

The "California Gold" token is one of several trinkets made by a manufacturing jeweler in and around Leavenworth, KS in the 1870s-1880s. These were wholesaled to jewelers who made bangles, bracelets, ear rings and other ornaments from them. The date is false. Gold content, even of the originals, was about 1/4 the stated value.

April 16, 1878

 R. M. Bertolet, MD

A. A. Surgeon, U.S. A.

Santa Lio, New Mexico

 Sir,

Your letter of the 9^th inst. has been received.

The U.S. Mint never coined or issued a smaller gold piece that one dollar.

50-cent and 25-cent gold pieces were struck by private parties in California, prior to admission of that state into the Union; and some bogus piece of those denominations have been manufactured of later years in Kansas and west of the mountain, but it is an indictable offense to make or circulate them. Some that we assayed proved to be worth about eleven, and six cents, respectively.

Very respectfully,

James Pollock, Superintendent

Edited June 10 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/10/2024 at 9:27 AM, Gray Electric said:

It says EUREKA on the back. Sorry my microscope cam isn't the best and this is really small. Here is something else I found that appears to be same coin, perhaps it gives a little more clarity and allows a comparison. 

Buy 1853 Arms of California Fractional Gold Token MS-63 Octagonal NGC | APMEX

 

[ Edited due to multi-tasking exacerbated by my own procrastination. ]

Clarification appreciated. One important distinction established is your coin is a token and tokens, as noted by Sandon upthread, "which are usually of modern origin, have little value." I have taken the liberty of perusing the internet and did not realize how crowded the field of California Fractionals is. However, based on the prices I have seen of your token in slightly higher and lower Mint State grades as certified by NGC, I would estimate your token's value to be $450. You can verify this yourself by doing a little window shopping of your own on eBay. There is, presently, a book, entitled: "California Gold Fractionals" for $199. You may be able to find a Used copy or one at a local library. Your one saving grace: the rise in spot gold over time.  🐓 

[Gray Electric]

On 6/10/2024 at 11:43 AM, Henri Charriere said:

[ Edited due to multi-tasking exacerbated by my own procrastination. ]

Clarification appreciated. One important distinction established is your coin is a token and tokens, as noted by Sandon upthread, "which are usually of modern origin, have little value." I have taken the liberty of perusing the internet and did not realize how crowded the field of California Fractionals is. However, based on the prices I have seen of your token in slightly higher and lower Mint State grades as certified by NGC, I would estimate your token's value to be $450. You can verify this yourself by doing a little window shopping of your own on eBay. There is, presently, a book, entitled: "California Gold Fractionals" for $199. You may be able to find a Used copy or one at a local library. Your one saving grace: the rise in spot gold over time.  🐓 

Thank you for that valuation. In that case I think I will set this gold token aside as the first coin in my grouping of submissions. I did follow your advice and hunted one down in a MS 62 that sold for just under $300 on eBay and an upgraded version that got $240. I also found that someone had purchased one of these recently, likely not realizing what it was for $20, wow! what a pleasant surprise for that lucky buyer. Thanks again. The information and guidance here is worth its weight in gold. 

Edited June 10 by Gray Electric

[Henri Charriere]

I had no intention of revisiting this TOPIC, but it is a lot more complex than I assumed it would be. 

For the record, Old World Gold (OWG) of Ohio seems to be the go-to seller of fractionals. A comment on one of his listings caught my eye:  "NGC shows only 10 specimens certified in all grades." Also, it appears NGC commands the lead in all listings. I have not encountered slabs from any of the other TPGS.  On the heels of what @RWB had written upthread, members may be curious to know just how high these fractionals go? One slab reads "1853: Dated Cal. Gold Token, Arms of Calif - Wreath # 5, Octagonal 9.4 mm / R7. NGC MS-67  Top Pop 4/0 $785. OBO Free Shipping.[Cert # 6062161-017] Another, a grade lower, MS-66, is being sold for $655.18. There is another  book for sale: California Pioneer Fractional Gold Book by Breen & Gilio, 2d Ed, s/c for $459. (Yes, that Breen!).

The gold fractional enthusiast must negotiate paths fraught with peril. You must know your material. Coins vs. Tokens, Denominated vs. Non-deniminated, Rounds vs. Octagonals and classifications like "Wreath # 5". How many others are there? What does "R-7" mean? How many others are there? A Round is listed at 11.8 mm; an Octagonal is listed as weighing 0.17 gm. The OP made a reference to a Fractional selling for $20. Many F20FR Gold roosters sell for less on Etsy, but the various sellers assume you know authentic "gold" tchotchkes cannot be acquired for 1/20th of the prevailing gold price which I should point out hovers at $2300.+/oz. presently.

While my estimated price may seem optimistic, bear in mind a few hours of research of other, same or similar, goods being sold or auctioned off, cannot substitute for doing your due diligence.  It is the most I, someone entirely unacacquainted with this specific area of interest, can do in the absence of time and resources.  My only hope is the OP's token will be authenticated and grade well.

I leave with a quote from the late, Hon Jack Weinstein, a legend in the Federal judiciary's E.D.N.Y., who, after receiving a letter from one of the two "Mafia Cops" serving multiple life sentences and begging for compassionate release, wrote back evenly, "I am sorry but I have done everything I can do." (Both prisoners have since died.) To the OP: heed the invaluable advice given to you. It appears your token is worth certification but continue to learn all you can about it. I only regret I have done as much as I can do for you.  You may wish to post the results of your submission once the results are in. I would like to thank you for bringing to my attention something I knew very little about. All the best.

[RWB]

“Cave cupiditas tuae."