General questions 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 6/4/2024 at 1:36 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Really...interesting.  I wonder if they got poached. 

It takes a big investment to create a quality grader....I doubt you can take even a long-time collector and have him be an expert on multiple series right off the bat and throw him into the fray.

Just curious....anybody have an idea what a junior and senior grader at a TPG make ?  I'm talking a guy who maybe just joined a TPG vs. a guy who has been there 15 years or something like that.  Always wondered......

I know that the vast majority of graders, TOP GRADERS, still have to tolerate roommates and seldom make enough to afford their own living space. 

[RWB]

On 6/4/2024 at 2:36 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just curious....anybody have an idea what a junior and senior grader at a TPG make ?  I'm talking a guy who maybe just joined a TPG vs. a guy who has been there 15 years or something like that.  Always wondered......

PCGS opened a thread on their message board several months ago announcing a job opening for a photographer. There was negative criticism from members about the low pay, especially for a high-cost area of California. I recall it was well under $100k - which makes living in a cardboard box or a car's back seat one of the housing options. (OK -- that's a small exaggeration.)

Many small companies do not realize the total cost of hiring new people versus paying current ones more $$.

Edited June 4 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 6/4/2024 at 2:14 PM, RWB said:

PCGS opened a thread on their message board several months ago announcing a job opening for a photographer. There was negative criticism from members about the low pay, especially for a high-cost area of California. I recall it was well under $100k - which makes living in a cardboard box or a car's back seat one of the housing options. (OK -- that's a small exaggeration.)

Many small companies do not realize the total cost of hiring new people versus paying current ones more $$.

Last year, at ANA Summer Seminar, NGC sent two senior people openly and unashamedly recruiting new graders, especially for grading world and Renaissance coins. The starting salary was well well WELL below that needed in the Sarasota area to afford even a ratty apartment. Many, including Kerry Wetterstrom, told me about this sotto voce, under the table, over the transom. Did he have the cajones to challenge NGC’s people about this? No, almost nobody has that kind of cajones. BUT I DO! AND I DID! Right in the middle of their sales pitch! Anybody surprised?

i am a 60-year anniversary Philadelphia Eagles fan. Our unofficial motto is,”Nobody likes us. We don’t care!”  It extends to everything. 

Edited June 4 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

Unless these are PT jobs, you're not gonna get quality by skimping. 

Considering the dollar value of the coins reviewed by a SINGLE grader at a TPG in a year...and then considering what the fees generated are....I don't see how an extra $50,000 or $75,000 should be a deal-breaker. 

I don't know how many graders there are at these firms, but considering the volume each one does, labor costs should NOT be a major cost center.  Plus, the margins on bulk-volume grading of moderns should be pretty lucrative.

How many graders work at PCGS and/or NGC ?   A dozen ?  Two dozen ?

[VKurtB]

On 6/4/2024 at 3:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How many graders work at PCGS and/or NGC ?   A dozen ?  Two dozen ?

Hundreds. 

[VKurtB]

On 6/4/2024 at 3:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't know how many graders there are at these firms, but considering the volume each one does, labor costs should NOT be a major cost center.

BY FAAAAAAR, the major cost center is payments to the owners, not labor. It is an obscenely inverted cost pyramid. 

Edited June 5 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/3/2024 at 10:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The real wildcard variable is toning....From what I have read here, toning wasn't something most people wanted 25-30 years ago or so.  Not even sure there were many toned coins back then -- were there ?

I do not believe toning, per se, adheres to any schedule.  There are way too many variables involved in the metal in question and it's exposure to an infinite number of chemical vapors in the air, moderated by heat, humidity -- or lack there of. Storage is a variable, too. What was also stored in the immediate vicinity? How much ventilation was it subjected to?  What clear plastics were used to house the coins in? You have attractive peripheral iridescent blue toning, a muted yellow of gold toning evenly distributed-- and coins exhibiting wild psychedelic toning with a spectrum of colors. The factors are limitless and one cannot account for an individual collector's taste.

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/4/2024 at 3:26 PM, VKurtB said:

Last year, at ANA Summer Seminar, NGC sent two senior people openly and unashamedly recruiting new graders, especially for grading world and Renaissance coins. The starting salary was well well WELL below that needed in the Sarasota area....

Did he have the cajones to challenge NGC’s people about this? No, almost nobody has that kind of cajones. BUT I DO! AND I DID! Right in the middle of their sales pitch! Anybody surprised?

I routinely Like a member's posts solely because his avatar intimidates me, but I can't see myself speaking up to challenge NGC.

Why are babysitters and dog walkers paid so much? Who knows, maybe NGC will find a teenager living at home or a retiree with time on his hands to do the work if found to be satisfactory.  One of the best-kept secrets is the people doing construction work, gardening and landscaping are migrants and Asians in restaurants. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/5/2024 at 4:57 PM, VKurtB said:

Hundreds. 

I have no proof but considering the workload, I would say scores - some on-call, working round-the-clock, in rotating shifts.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/5/2024 at 4:57 PM, VKurtB said:

Hundreds. 

I don't think so.  Seems high.

They no longer put out the Annual Population Survey....but in the past, the total number of U.S. graded coins could be deteremined each year.  Assuming an average grader does 50,000 coins a year (~250 coins a day @ 220 days) you could figure out how many U.S. coins they graded that year and estimate the number of graders (assuming most coins had 3 graders).  The bulk are probably moderns and who knows if that is by committee or just 1 person.

[VKurtB]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't think so.  Seems high.

They no longer put out the Annual Population Survey....but in the past, the total number of U.S. graded coins could be deteremined each year.  Assuming an average grader does 50,000 coins a year (~250 coins a day @ 220 days) you could figure out how many U.S. coins they graded that year and estimate the number of graders (assuming most coins had 3 graders).  The bulk are probably moderns and who knows if that is by committee or just 1 person.

Listen up. EVERY COIN is graded by at least three graders. Graders specialize in types of material. NGC has OVER 700 employees in Sarasota alone. 

[J P M]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't think so.  Seems high.

They no longer put out the Annual Population Survey....but in the past, the total number of U.S. graded coins could be deteremined each year.  Assuming an average grader does 50,000 coins a year (~250 coins a day @ 220 days) you could figure out how many U.S. coins they graded that year and estimate the number of graders (assuming most coins had 3 graders).  The bulk are probably moderns and who knows if that is by committee or just 1 person.

I think we calculated it out on another thread. It was one coin every 15 seconds. So that comes out to 240 an hour not 250 a day