General questions 1 1

[double ddo]

Why is it that some sites say that a wheat penny or a Lincoln Cent is scarce or rare when other sites or forums say that the same coin it's worth face value only and is not scarce. Example: 1982 d zinc comp 2.5 g small date Lincoln Cent. Auction record for that penny is 18,000 I believe, yet the same coin, my coin has been pcgs photo graded at ms67, you then send pics out to different forums an some say, it's only worth face value while others say, nice Coin, get it graded. It's confusing to someone new in this business. Second concern: I've looked thru the archives of pcgs an ngc an see coins with small scratches with grades above ms 60. You send pics out again an your told, it has a small scratch it's worth face value. I didn't  think you could get a coin graded with any sort of scratch. I can't speak  for other beginners, but it's frustrating an confusing for this beginner. Your feedback is appreciated.

[Coinbuf]

Well lets start with some ground rules, as you are admittingly a beginner it is very unlikely that you are qualified to grade coins in the uber gem MS67 and above grades the same as a TPG grader.   I am not saying that to be mean or dump on your grading skills, but it is just true that it takes years and looking at tens of thousands of coins to learn to grade like a TPG grader.    It is just not as simple as two marks = MS68 and three marks = MS67, there is a lot more to grading than how many marks a coin has on it.   Just because you think your 82-D zinc matches or would grade as MS67RD using the photograde feature on the PCGS website, that does not mean that anyone will agree with your grade assessment.    So, you might think it's an MS67 but ten other people (including TPG graders) might grade it as MS66 or lower due to many factors other than just how many marks you can count on the coin surface.   The severity of the marks, the placement of the marks, these and many other factors determine the grade, and those will not always weigh the same from person to person.

Grading is highly subjective, especially so as the grades get closer to the top grades; and then you add in the human element.   Professional graders often do not agree with each other on some coins.   Grading is not a mathematical equation, and grades can (and there are many well documented cases of such) and do change over time depending on who is doing the grading at any point in time.

As I type this reply there is a thread on another forum about a Kennedy half dollar that was sold in Jan as an MS66, it was just resold this month with a new grade of MS67+, same coin just a new grade and a very drastic change in value.   And this type of thing happens quite often; here is a screen shot of the coin in question.

So as you can see from this one example even professional graders do not always agree on a grade, this coin received a full point and a half grade bump (which incidentally I do not agree with) since the first auction in Jan.    So it's no surprise that you will receive different grade and value estimates on any raw coin that you ask about.    This is especially true with modern coins like your 82-d where a point change (sometimes even only a half a point) in grade can make a big difference in value.

And we have only begun to scratch the surface here, going back to your 82-d coin, remember that when you post a coin and ask for grade/value assessments, the people that reply are not grading the coin, they are grading your photo.   Photos have limitations and even the very best photos may not fully represent what the coin looks like when viewed by the human eye in hand.

Another issue when you ask questions on the internet is that you have no idea of the experience level of those who reply.   Some may know a great deal more than you, but it is just as likely that some who reply may know squat.   Here again is just another reason why your grade may differ from everyone else, I could go on for days but hopefully what I have written can help you to understand that grading is a very complex and nuanced action.

Edited May 29 by Coinbuf

[powermad5000]

You will most likely get many lengthy responses to your general questions, and I myself could do the same, but since we are discussing general questions, I shall give a general response.

First, grading in and of itself is an opinion. Each person viewing the coin can have a differing opinion. Some people viewing the coin may miss some specific impairment, or may not be well versed with the series to know specifics such as certain dates having mostly weakly struck specimens that others confuse for wear. Grading involves many factors. The main factors are strike, blemishes, wear or absence of wear, and impairments such as cleaning or other damage. Someone does not need to be well educated and well experienced to provide an opinion of grade. Even a newbie can have an opinion of what they think a coin might grade, and a highly experienced numismatist will have a completely different opinion of grade of the same coin.

It is not always equitable to look up past auction results and apply that data to your coin. Each coin has its own specifics. One coin that the gavel banged for $18,000 might be a superb specimen with fantastic eye appeal, while a different coin of the same type, year, mint, and grade could gavel for only $8000 because it still falls within the grade but it could have unappealing toning or other coloration issues. It also depends on who is present at the time an auction ends. There are times when a coin sells to a bidder uncontested as if nobody else had any interest whatsoever in it. On the opposite end, there could be two bidders who rabidly want a particular coin just as bad as each other and get into a bidding war that sends the gavel price through the roof.

Scratches do not preclude a coin from being graded, or even slabbed for that matter. I have a early large cent that is heavily scratched and it still received its details grade and got slabbed despite its not so good appearance. While on this topic, a coin graded MS 60 can certainly have scratches. MS just means a coin is considered as having no wear. As an example, there are many Morgan Dollars that are graded MS that have high numbers of scratches on them. They were put into Mint bags after they were struck and there were 1000 per bag. The coins sustained many scratches from contact with other coins in the bag as well as bag marks from when the coins were dropped into the bag. They are still gradeable and will get an appropriate grade depending on the number and location of the scratches. This applies to all coins and not just Morgans. A coin does not have to be "perfect" to be considered as MS.

As for values, those are attached to a coin's grade, but once again, two coins of the same grade with one having fantastic eye appeal, and the other having some heavy toning will likely sell for very different values. Bring impairments into the spectrum of values and then you will see valuations go all over the place depending on the amount and severity of the impairments.

This is just some of the basic basics when it comes to grading and values. Keep studying and learning and getting better at your own self grading so you don't need to rely so much on the opinions of others.

[Sandon]

    Both @Coinbuf and @powermad5000 have made valid and informative observations regarding your question.  I'll add a few comments:

    Grading, especially of mint state or unworn proof coins, can't be done from photos alone because it involves inspection of the coin at different angles, lighting, and magnification.  Moreover, a single photo for a given coin series in a given grade, such as on PCGS Photograde, can't represent every coin awarded that grade because no two coins are alike, and grades of unworn coins are based on a mixture of factors, including strike, luster, and "eye appeal", as well as surface preservation (the number, location, and severity of abrasions, nicks and scratches resulting from coin-to-coin contact during distribution and storage).

   Regarding scratches, small scratches that appear to have resulted from contact with other coins or objects while a coin was being placed in or stored in a bag or roll don't prevent the coins from being given a circulated grade, but coins with long--even if light--or deep scratches that appear to have been imparted by a sharp object such as a nail, pin, or staple are regarded as impaired and will only receive a details grade.

   The extremely high prices sometimes realized by common coins (such as a 1982-D small date zinc cent or a 1969-D Kennedy half dollar) that top tier grading services have awarded very high numerical grades result from competition by a group of wealthy collectors, many of whom are primarily concerned with placing such coins in their online registry sets to achieve higher scores. What matters to many of these collectors isn't how the coin actually looks to their own eyes but the number on the little paper tag in the holder.  The 1969-D Kennedy half dollar in Coinbuf's post is a good example of this.  In my opinion, these collectors have more money than sense.

   In my opinion, the adoption of an eleven-point system for grading unworn coins in 1986, which has now expanded to about twenty grades when "plus" grades are included, was a colossal error that is nevertheless so entrenched that we are stuck with it for the foreseeable future. This error has led to frustration and confusion on the part of newer collectors such as you and for more experienced collectors as well.  

   My advice: Learn basic adjectival and numerical grading standards as set forth in the ANA Grading Guide--if you don't know what that is, so inform me--and don't try to determine exactly what numerical grade an unworn coin will receive. An uncertified coin that you estimate after learning these standards as "Choice Uncirculated" could grade anywhere from 62 to 64 or even 65 at a grading service, and you wouldn't be objectively wrong. When you buy certified coins after learning these standards, base your purchases on your own evaluation of the coin in accordance with your own taste and not primarily on the number on the little paper tag. 

[double ddo]

Very informative an gave me some clarity that I desperately needed. Appreciate you voluntarily sharing your knowledge and experience. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/29/2024 at 5:02 PM, double ddo said:

Why is it that some sites say that a wheat penny or a Lincoln Cent is scarce or rare when other sites or forums say that the same coin it's worth face value only and is not scarce. Example: 1982 d zinc comp 2.5 g small date Lincoln Cent. Auction record for that penny is 18,000 I believe, yet the same coin, my coin has been pcgs photo graded at ms67, you then send pics out to different forums an some say, it's only worth face value while others say, nice Coin, get it graded. It's confusing to someone new in this business. Second concern: I've looked thru the archives of pcgs an ngc a see coins with small scratches with grades above ms 60. You send pics out again a your told, it has a small scratch it's worth face value. I didn't  think you could get a coin graded with any sort of scratch. I can't speak  for other beginners, but it's frustrating a confusing for this beginner. Your feedback is appreciated.

Re: “frustrating and confusing”.

The problem causing these feelings is the belief that “my coin is as nice as that one”. It isn’t. I promise it’s not. You need to understand what makes one coin nicer than another, and it’s NOT WHAT ANY BEGINNER THINKS IT IS! Sorry, but the collecting field is NOT intuitive. In fact, it’s often COUNTERINTUITIVE. When we are talking about the truly lofty grades, the key differences defy still image photography. One has to hold said coins IN THEIR HANDS, unfortunately with DECADES OF EXPERIENCE, to even guess at these über-grades. Grading these coins from photos will lead you astray EVERY TIME. 

[RWB]

Sadly, the internet and "social media" have enabled a class of people for whom deceit, fraud, misrepresentation and persistent lying are the core of their existence. They prey on trusting people and those with limited critical thinking skills, for profit and for reinforcement of their own distorted personalities.

[VKurtB]

On 5/30/2024 at 7:04 PM, RWB said:

Sadly, the internet and "social media" have enabled a class of people for whom deceit, fraud, misrepresentation and persistent lying are the core of their existence. They prey on trusting people and those with limited critical thinking skills, for profit and for reinforcement of their own distorted personalities.

So here we are, using the Internet to “teach” numismatics, as if such a thing were even remotely possible beyond extremely basic concepts. We remain silent about this at our own personal and reputational peril. Numismatics is about three dimensional objects made mostly of metals. The Internet is two dimensional and deals with electronic and digital pics. We need to do better, or by “keepin’ it rill” as they say in da hood. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/29/2024 at 6:42 PM, Coinbuf said:

As I type this reply there is a thread on another forum about a Kennedy half dollar that was sold in Jan as an MS66, it was just resold this month with a new grade of MS67+, same coin just a new grade and a very drastic change in value.   And this type of thing happens quite often; here is a screen shot of the coin in question.

This is the Franklin Gradeflation Thread all over !!!    UNREAL !!!

Do we know when the MS-66 grading took place ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

One thing we can all agree on:  unless that coin was ORIGINALLY graded like 25-30 years ago, that's a big jump in grade.

I can't tell for sure without seeing the reverse, but the coin is no earlier than a Gen 4.4 Holder from 2005-11 when "gradeflation" was all the range.  So I am somewhat surprised/shocked it "only" got a 66 then and is now a 67+.

Somebody here was telling me that the Franklin incident could have been because toning got accepted after the original (low) grade but that didn't appear to be the case then and it CERTAINLY isn't the case now as this coin has been toned and graded/sold as such for some time during both holders existence with this coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/30/2024 at 8:15 PM, VKurtB said:

So here we are, using the Internet to “teach” numismatics, as if such a thing were even remotely possible beyond extremely basic concepts. We remain silent about this at our own personal and reputational peril. Numismatics is about three dimensional objects made mostly of metals. The Internet is two dimensional and deals with electronic and digital pics. We need to do better, or by “keepin’ it rill” as they say in da hood. 

Don't sell the internet, proper social media -- like this site -- short for their ability to transmit information to those who WANT to learn and do so PROPERLY. 

For MOST people, it's been a godsend.

There have been scam artist coin shows, dealers, collectors, etc....you wouldn't say that ALL of those things shouldn't have been around for the last 100 years, right ? 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Great posts, Sandon....very useful thread. 

[Coinbuf]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:04 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

This is the Franklin Gradeflation Thread all over !!!    UNREAL !!!

Do we know when the MS-66 grading took place ? 

No only the submitter and PCGS knows exactly when the coin was graded as MS66, however, we don't need to see the rev to know the holder generation.   It's a 6.1 holder used from late 2020 to current.   I can tell that from the little NFC symbol in the bottom left (viewers left) corner of the obv holder, only the most current generation holder uses the NFC technology.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/2/2024 at 12:46 PM, Coinbuf said:

No only the submitter and PCGS knows exactly when the coin was graded as MS66, however, we don't need to see the rev to know the holder generation.   It's a 6.1 holder used from late 2020 to current.   I can tell that from the little NFC symbol in the bottom left (viewers left) corner of the obv holder, only the most current generation holder uses the NFC technology.

Wow...so in under 3 1/2 years it went up 1 1/2 grades ?  OMG.....

Edited June 3 by GoldFinger1969

[Coinbuf]

On 6/2/2024 at 5:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow...so in under 3 years it went up 1 1/2 grades ?  OMG.....

No more like 3 months, it sold as MS66 in Jan of 24, then again in May at the new higher grade.   What we don't know is how many times it was resubmitted between the Jan auction to the May result, my guess is this was over two show submissions, but no way to know for sure.

[VKurtB]

On 6/2/2024 at 7:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow...so in 5 months it went up 1 1/2 grades ?  OMG.....

Read up on the Ike regrades.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/2/2024 at 8:15 PM, Coinbuf said:

No more like 3 months, it sold as MS66 in Jan of 24, then again in May at the new higher grade.   What we don't know is how many times it was resubmitted between the Jan auction to the May result, my guess is this was over two show submissions, but no way to know for sure.

But even if it was graded late-2020 (the earliest for that Gen Holder), that's a pretty quick turnaround to go up 1 1 2/ increments.

Very surprised....esp. since the PCGS folks you would think might not get that many coins uniquely toned in that high a grade that it would stand out and maybe they all remember the coin as a 66.

Edited June 3 by GoldFinger1969

[Coinbuf]

On 6/2/2024 at 5:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But even if it was graded late-2020 (the earliest for that Gen Holder), that's a pretty quick turnaround to go up 1 1 2/ increments.

Very surprised....esp. since the PCGS folks you would think might not get that many coins uniquely toned in that high a grade that it would stand out and maybe they all remember the coin as a 66.

PCGS has had a lot of turnover with graders from what I have read/heard, in fact they have the most junior grading staff of any TPG.   It's very likely that the graders that saw it between the Jan and May auctions were not the same that originally graded it MS66.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/2/2024 at 8:25 PM, Coinbuf said:

PCGS has had a lot of turnover with graders from what I have read/heard, in fact they have the most junior grading staff of any TPG.   It's very likely that the graders that saw it between the Jan and May auctions were not the same that originally graded it MS66.

I guess the toning and other stuff could throw off graders at 2 different intervals for a coin that isn't seen in that condition and grade.  I'd be surprised to see a non-toned MSD or Saint change that much in a few years.

Edited June 3 by GoldFinger1969

[Sandon]

      This problem isn't new. Back in the early days of third-party grading, Coin World sent coins to grading services, cracked them out, resubmitted them, and got grades that varied by as many as five points (such as AU 58 to MS 63), sometimes from the same grading service, over a time frame too short for grading standards to have changed. 

     Assuming that the 1969-D Kennedy half dollar has unusually mark-free surfaces, full luster, and a decent strike, which can't be determined from the images, an appropriate adjectival description would be "Gem Uncirculated with rainbow toning", whether the numerical grade awarded is 66 or 67+.  Is it worth $448 or $5,064?  For that matter, is it worth either amount given that a nice untoned Choice Brilliant Uncirculated example of this issue can be purchased for $8 or so?  Why do we allow prices to be dictated by a subjectively determined number on a little paper tag?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:36 PM, Sandon said:

Assuming that the 1969-D Kennedy half dollar has unusually mark-free surfaces, full luster, and a decent strike, which can't be determined from the images, an appropriate adjectival description would be "Gem Uncirculated with rainbow toning", whether the numerical grade awarded is 66 or 67+.  Is it worth $448 or $5,064?  For that matter, is it worth either amount given that a nice untoned Choice Brilliant Uncirculated example of this issue can be purchased for $8 or so?  Why do we allow prices to be dictated by a subjectively determined number on a little paper tag?

Choice BU though is about MS-63, right ?  That's 3 grades lower than even the 66.

[Sandon]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Choice BU though is about MS-63, right ?  That's 3 grades lower than even the 66.

 That's right. I've never understood why whatever difference that there may be would be worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, especially for a common coin.  Unlike the grades for circulated coins, the differences between the eleven or more mint state grades can't be objectively described or applied. It's not a rational way to determine value.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/2/2024 at 10:05 PM, Sandon said:

 That's right. I've never understood why whatever difference that there may be would be worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, especially for a common coin.  Unlike the grades for circulated coins, the differences between the eleven or more mint state grades can't be objectively described or applied. It's not a rational way to determine value.

But surely you know that low-60's vs. 65 vs. 67 and up are definitely different, right ?

I can't speak about this coin but on MSDs or Saints, it's like night-and-day when you go up 3 or more increments in the Mint State.  And the folks with $$$ want the best ones so they pay up.

Why does a ticket in the Legend Seats at Yankee Stadium cost $2,500 and another seat 100 feet away in the Upper Deck costs maybe $30 ? 

Edited June 3 by GoldFinger1969

[Coinbuf]

On 6/2/2024 at 7:14 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why does a ticket in the Legend Seats at Yankee Stadium cost $2,500 and another seat 100 feet away in the Upper Deck costs maybe $30 ? 

Exactly, @Sandon truly you know that the "best" almost always costs more, even if its not that much better.   I personally don't think of BMW as a top quality car, but nobody is selling them for Yugo prices, just as nobody is selling floor seats at nosebleed prices.   The best coins have always commanded top prices, that was true before TPG's and it is still true today.

Yes I get what you are saying, but like it or not using the TPG grade to determine price is a very logical way for the market to consume TPG graded coins.    The current market is driven by what that little paper tag says, especially so at the tip of the spear where all the whales are feeding.   Coins like this are bought up by the registry players who are more driven by top pops (even if they are not) than anything else.

This particular half is a technical MS65 or MS64 to my eye, but color and eye appeal (however you define that) are what drive the market, and PCGS has always been very much in love with both color and luster.

[Sandon]

   For the over $5,000 that someone paid for that 1969-D Kennedy half dollar, an abundantly common coin with a mintage of nearly 130 million, I would have purchased one of the rare type coins I still don't have, such as a 1793 Wreath cent in Good to Very Good, a 1796-97 Draped Bust, Small Eagle dime in Very Good to Fine condition, or a Choice to Very Choice Proof Morgan dollar. These coins are for me vastly more interesting than a 1969-D Kennedy half in the highest awarded grade. 

   I've never been interested in so-called "condition rarities" of common coins and have no interest in paying more than two figures for any common, modern issue because of the number on a little paper tag, especially where the same grading service can vary by one to two points and thousands of dollars in list value.

Edited June 3 by Sandon

[VKurtB]

On 6/2/2024 at 7:25 PM, Coinbuf said:

PCGS has had a lot of turnover with graders from what I have read/heard, in fact they have the most junior grading staff of any TPG.   It's very likely that the graders that saw it between the Jan and May auctions were not the same that originally graded it MS66.

Add to that the fact they are all Californians and are therefore insane by definition.

[GoldFinger1969]

The real wildcard variable is toning.  Not only can some folks be willing to pay up for it but it could also HIDE blemishes that otherwise would have debited points.

From what I have read here, toning wasn't something most people wanted 25-30 years ago or so.  Not even sure there were many toned coins back then -- were there ?

Edited June 3 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 6/3/2024 at 9:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The real wildcard variable is toning.  Not only can some folks be willing to pay up for it but it could also HIDE blemishes that otherwise would have debited points.

From what I have read here, toning wasn't something most people wanted 25-30 years ago or so.  Not even sure there were many toned coins back then -- were there ?

True. There were not so many toned coins 25-30 years ago. The large scale intentional creation of toned coins hadn’t begun yet. Nascent demand CREATES supply. It is THE fundamental dishonesty of this hobby which cannot be denied. 

[Coinbuf]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The real wildcard variable is toning.  Not only can some folks be willing to pay up for it but it could also HIDE blemishes that otherwise would have debited points.

From what I have read here, toning wasn't something most people wanted 25-30 years ago or so.  Not even sure there were many toned coins back then -- were there ?

Yes, while the market overall favored blast white 30 or so years ago, and many still do, there have always been toned coins and those that preferred toned.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/2/2024 at 8:25 PM, Coinbuf said:

PCGS has had a lot of turnover with graders from what I have read/heard, in fact they have the most junior grading staff of any TPG.   

Really...interesting.  I wonder if they got poached. 

It takes a big investment to create a quality grader....I doubt you can take even a long-time collector and have him be an expert on multiple series right off the bat and throw him into the fray.

Just curious....anybody have an idea what a junior and senior grader at a TPG make ?  I'm talking a guy who maybe just joined a TPG vs. a guy who has been there 15 years or something like that.  Always wondered......