$20, 1907 Liberty Head with mark/assay 1 1

[EdZulu1972]

Dear Members, my first posting here:

Have this 1907 $20 Liberty Head gold coin with this marking where it should not be.

Please can you assist in identifying the marking?

Regards

EdZulu1972

[Henri Charriere]

Hi there!  

Greetings and salutations.

I cannot resist the temptation to weigh in.  You state you have a Double Eagle with "this marking where it should not be."  Personally, I do not see the need for such marking at all, but if you feel it is "where it should not be," perhaps you can tell us where it ought to be.  We take all customer complaints seriously.  🤣

(I am sure someone will stop by shortly to give you a valid explanation.)

[RWB]

Your circulated DE has been defaced with a punch. There is nothing to suggest why this was done. Some US gold coins were stamped with an "L" at sub-Treasuries to indicate light weight as part of the post-1870 recoinage of light gold. A few escaped melting. Your coin is NOT one of them.

[EdZulu1972]

On 3/25/2024 at 4:20 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Hi there!  

Greetings and salutations.

I cannot resist the temptation to weigh in.  You state you have a Double Eagle with "this marking where it should not be."  Personally, I do not see the need for such marking at all, but if you feel it is "where it should not be," perhaps you can tell us where it ought to be.  We take all customer complaints seriously.  🤣

(I am sure someone will stop by shortly to give you a valid explanation.)

🤣 Love your sense of humour!

Not complaining sir, perplexed

[GoldFinger1969]

What are the marks indicative of ?  Do we know what they stand for ?

Where did you get the coin -- the seller had no information or guesses ?

Edited March 26 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

This same type of damage has been deemed "acceptable" by numismatists on Trade Dollars.  My guess is, on a Double Eagle it would be unacceptable, but seeing as how the damage inflicted was intentional -- and somewhat unique, its value would similarly pivot on the focused demand of those who find the damage to be beguiling. 

In the absence of a back story, one pitch would be, as follows...  Damage. What damage?  Oh that!  That's a rarely seen assayer's mark!      

[EdZulu1972]

On 3/25/2024 at 6:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What are the market indicative of ?  Do we know what they stand for ?

Where did you get the coin -- the seller had no information or guesses ?

The coin finds itself in South Africa at present. Can only assume it has travelled here by the hand of a dealer or collector, they are rare in our market which is dominated by Kruger Pond and Kruger Rand gold coins.

The mark itself is intriguing and I'm unable to find any reference to its originater, owner, group etc.

It appears to be struck with excessive force or by an inexperienced hand unfamiliar with gold shore hardness.

That's all the details we have...

 

[Zebo]

2nd South African newbie in a week. Welcome to the forum. 

[Greenstang]

Just guessing here but it could possibly be an assayers mark verifying that it is gold.  
much like the trade dollars that were counterstamped proving them to be genuine.

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:25 AM, Greenstang said:

Just guessing here but it could possibly be an assayers mark verifying that it is gold.  
much like the trade dollars that were counterstamped proving them to be genuine.

I am inclined to agree. There are ways to authenticate coins today that were not available years ago. Incidentally, when's the last time a TPGS defiled a coin in such manner to prove it was genuine? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:25 AM, Greenstang said:

Just guessing here but it could possibly be an assayers mark verifying that it is gold.  much like the trade dollars that were counterstamped proving them to be genuine.

Was counterfeiting a problem 120 years ago ?  I thought that's why U.S. gold coins were so universally accepted.  

[Greenstang]

Quote

Was counterfeiting a problem 120 years ago ?  I thought that's why U.S. gold coins were so universally accepted.  

Early gold coins are among the most counterfeited of US coins.     

Going back to about 1853, gold coins hold 43 out of 50 top positions of the most counterfeited coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/26/2024 at 10:21 AM, Greenstang said:

Early gold coins are among the most counterfeited of US coins.  Going back to about 1853, gold coins hold 43 out of 50 top positions of the most counterfeited coins.

But the Eagles -- Double, $10, 1/2, 1/4 -- I would have thought those were toughter to counterfeit back then since the technology was limited. 

[RWB]

People could split half eagles, scoop out the guts, and insert a platinum disc, seal the whole thing like new. They also drilled holes through the edge and the filled with a bit of platinum wire, then reformed and plated the edge.
 

Nothing to do with assaying. People wanting quick verification of gold would make a cut into the coin.

Edited March 26 by RWB

[Zebo]

On 3/26/2024 at 9:54 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Was counterfeiting a problem 120 years ago ?  I thought that's why U.S. gold coins were so universally accepted.  

1907 they weren’t universally accepted or known. Even in the forties during World War II, some flight crews (Army Air Corp) were given sovereigns and (for QA - even a rooster) in escape kits in case they were shot down behind enemy lines. This was because they were much better recognized than U.S. gold at the time. These kits were produced by the Navy in Norfolk, Virginia.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/26/2024 at 1:10 PM, Zebo said:

1907 they weren’t universally accepted or known. Even in the forties during World War II, some flight crews (Army Air Corp) were given sovereigns and (for QA - even a rooster) in escape kits in case they were shot down behind enemy lines. This was because they were much better recognized than U.S. gold at the time. These kits were produced by the Navy in Norfolk, Virginia.

Hmmm.....everything I have read with global trade -- including lots of Roger's stuff -- implies U.S. coins were dominant or at least co-equal with British coins.  All these other countries were hoarding U.S. coins and DEs, not sovereigns for the most part.

OTOH...when James Bond needed gold coins in his briefcase in "From Russia With Love" they did put 50 gold Sovereigns !! 

Edited March 26 by GoldFinger1969

[Zebo]

On 3/26/2024 at 1:44 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Hmmm.....everything I have read with global trade -- including lots of Roger's stuff -- implies U.S. coins were dominant or at least co-equal with British coins.  All these other countries were hoarding U.S. coins and DEs, not sovereigns for the most part.

OTOH...when James Bond needed gold coins in his briefcase in "From Russia With Love" they did put 50 gold Sovereigns !! 

Some Central banks (Governments) maybe - not by the populace and not around the world. 

Edited March 26 by Zebo

[zadok]

On 3/26/2024 at 1:44 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Hmmm.....everything I have read with global trade -- including lots of Roger's stuff -- implies U.S. coins were dominant or at least co-equal with British coins.  All these other countries were hoarding U.S. coins and DEs, not sovereigns for the most part.

OTOH...when James Bond needed gold coins in his briefcase in "From Russia With Love" they did put 50 gold Sovereigns !! 

...moral...dont believe everything u read, including lots of the other stuff...its often just opinions....

[Henri Charriere]

Now overseas, we do not know when that "mark" was applied or where -- or why.  I don't know about intrusive surgery and shaving, but that is why bullion coins are reeded. A shady dealer I offered to sell my silver bar to stated he was going to drill a hole in it. I asked him what he was going to do with it then. He said, melt it!  I said, "What for?" He smiled and pleasantly lying thru his teeth said, "We melt all scrap."  I pointed out he was holding a bar with a universally-recognized hallmark (Engelhard) whose precise weight (100 ozs) fineness (.999) and specifications are known and available to anyone who inquires. I retrieved the bar and walked out. My feeling is the Double Eagle was defiled outside the country, a long long time ago.