Ireland 1927 Pattern 1 1

[Fenntucky Mike]

A rare Irish pattern piece just popped up for sale, graded by our hosts PF64, it is the pingin (penny) pattern designed by Publio Morbiducci.

Image From Atlas Numismatics, https://atlasnumismatics.com/1078211/ .

I believe Morbiducci commissioned the patterns himself and had a handful produced in Italy, none of his designs were chosen for the new coinage as the Committee voted in favor of those submitted by Percy Metcalfe.

The most recent auction record I could find for a 1 penny pattern was in 2022, the piece auction by Spink sold for just over $23k with BP.  The coin above is listed on ebay and the seller is asking $30k ($29,500 on their website) but is accepting offers. 

I was thinking that a reasonable sell price would have been in the $10k range but it seems $30 is not too far off albeit a little high.

Below is Metcalfe's design. Does anyone disagree with the Committee's selection?

Image from NGC World Coin Price Guide. https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/ireland-republic-penny-km-3-1928-1937-cuid-1126846-duid-1473460

Edited February 22 by Fenntucky Mike
Words

[Zebo]

I like the pattern reverse better and am leaning towards the obverse as well, but haven’t made my mind up quite yet.

[zadok]

On 2/22/2024 at 8:15 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

A rare Irish pattern piece just popped up for sale, graded by our hosts PF64, it is the pingin (penny) pattern designed by Publio Morbiducci.

Image From Atlas Numismatics, https://atlasnumismatics.com/1078211/ .

I believe Morbiducci commissioned the patterns himself and had a handful produced in Italy, none of his designs were chosen for the new coinage as the Committee voted in favor of those submitted by Percy Metcalfe.

The most recent auction record I could find for a 1 penny pattern was in 2022, the piece auction by Spink sold for just over $23k with BP.  The coin above is listed on ebay and the seller is asking $30k ($29,500 on their website) but is accepting offers. 

I was thinking that a reasonable sell price would have been in the $10k range but it seems $30 is not too far off albeit a little high.

Below is Metcalfe's design. Does anyone disagree with the Committee's selection?

Image from NGC World Coin Price Guide. https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/ireland-republic-penny-km-3-1928-1937-cuid-1126846-duid-1473460

...morbiducci patterns do show up from time to time n the prices have escalated 10 fold over the past 50+ years since i purchased my own...i do believe u r correct in that morbiducci had a few patterns struck privately, the original model submissions were not presented as actual coins but as designs...interestingly, there were a total of 66 models submitted by 7 different artists, other than the designs the only patterns i have seen were those created by morbiducci....

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:56 AM, Zebo said:

I like the pattern reverse better and am leaning towards the obverse as well, but haven’t made my mind up quite yet.

The pattern reverse is definitely more lifelike and has movement to it, the Metcalfe is more art deco which is fitting for the times. I'm really having a hard time choosing between the reverses but I do prefer the Metcalfe obverse hands down. The harp is too puny on the pattern, the layout on the Metcalfe design seems better to me.

In all fairness we are comparing a pattern to a final design, Morbiducci's design would have gone through several revisions if selected to make it more friendly to produce, prevent premature die wear, etc.. I have not seen Metcalfe's initial submission for the penny but his initial designs for some of the other coins were altered considerably for several reasons. If I can find an image of Metcalfe's original submission for the penny I'll post it here.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2024 at 10:57 AM, zadok said:

...morbiducci patterns do show up from time to time n the prices have escalated 10 fold over the past 50+ years since i purchased my own...i do believe u r correct in that morbiducci had a few patterns struck privately, the original model submissions were not presented as actual coins but as designs...interestingly, there were a total of 66 models submitted by 7 different artists, other than the designs the only patterns i have seen were those created by morbiducci....

Were most or all of the Morbiducci patterns sold by his widow in '76 or were there others in private collections? It would make sense that Morbiducci distributed a few of the patterns, or sets of patterns, to individuals prior to his death, most likely at or around the time he submitted his models. 

Edited February 22 by Fenntucky Mike

[zadok]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:20 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Were most or all of the Morbiducci patterns sold by his widow in '76 or were there others in private collections? It would make sense that Morbiducci distributed a few of the patterns or sets of patterns to individuals prior to his death, most likely at or around the time he submitted his models. 

...the ones i purchased were thru a third party from his widow, i did know a couple of dealers who had a few patterns that they had purchased...as to whether he personally distributed any i can not say...i do have the names of the dealers that had the patterns for sale but am not certain who was the source for those pcs....

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2024 at 1:01 PM, zadok said:

...the ones i purchased were thru a third party from his widow, i did know a couple of dealers who had a few patterns that they had purchased...as to whether he personally distributed any i can not say...i do have the names of the dealers that had the patterns for sale but am not certain who was the source for those pcs....

Interesting. 

Were all 10 of Morbiducci's designs produced as patterns or only some of the designs/denominations?  Gut feeling for how many were minted of each or total, Krause estimates the number between 4-5 for the known examples. 

At least for the penny, patterns were stuck in three different metals. I don't know if this is the case for the other designs as well. 

[RWB]

The piece is NOT an Irish Republic pattern piece. It is a privately made token imitation. There are authentic Irish patterns made on authority of the government, but this piece is not one of them.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:56 AM, Zebo said:

I like the pattern reverse better and am leaning towards the obverse as well, but haven’t made my mind up quite yet.

Here are the original Metcalfe designs, see below. Not much changed with the penny, the hound, hunter, pig, and bull were altered to greater extents. 

Final designs below.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2024 at 5:40 PM, RWB said:

The piece is NOT an Irish Republic pattern piece. It is a privately made token imitation. There are authentic Irish patterns made on authority of the government, but this piece is not one of them.

I think we all agree that it is a privately made piece which was not commissioned by the government but presumably by the artist who submitted the designs to the committee. Why could there not be patterns for unaffiliated medals or tokens? Why couldn't a private party commission patterns of prospective designs? Perhaps Morbiducci medal or design pattern would be a better description.

 

[Henri Charriere]

Blast from the Past!

Q.A.:  Pigeon? What pigeon? That design looks awfully familiar... 

🐓  :  Pingin.

Q.A.:  That's no pigeon! -- what did you say?

🐓  :  Pidgin, not pigeon.

Q.A.:  Pidgin... Oh... well that changes everything... Never mind.... Hold on! What did RWB say again?

🐓:  It's a token imitation, not a pattern piece.

Q.A.:  But why so much money then?  How come a member who owns a few missed that?  And the Grand Master, who presumably doesn't, caught that right away?

🐓  :  I don't know.  It's destined to become one of life's enduring mysteries...

***

Great thread!  Never knew these even existed! I love all this broadening of the "body of knowledge."  Man, I love this place!  

 

[zadok]

On 2/22/2024 at 5:40 PM, RWB said:

The piece is NOT an Irish Republic pattern piece. It is a privately made token imitation. There are authentic Irish patterns made on authority of the government, but this piece is not one of them.

...duh...no one said it was, the discussion already established that...but it is not a token, all patterns r not issued by gov'ts or did u decide to just make that up...u should stick with US dumpster documents n not try speaking for the Ireland mint, im pretty sure u have not been anointed spokesperson for them...

[RWB]

On 2/22/2024 at 6:14 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I think we all agree that it is a privately made piece which was not commissioned by the government but presumably by the artist who submitted the designs to the committee. Why could there not be patterns for unaffiliated medals or tokens? Why couldn't a private party commission patterns of prospective designs? Perhaps Morbiducci medal or design pattern would be a better description.

 

A legitimate pattern piece is made only by the government or by direct commissioning of such work.

If any privately made, non-commissioned piece includes the national identifier and a legal tender valuation, then is a correctly called a counterfeit coin.

[RWB]

Henri/Quintus....There is a vast array of legitimate pattern pieces from around the world. American collectors rarely branch out beyond their own narrow borders. There are also, many other proposed designs that exist only in model form.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2024 at 8:33 PM, RWB said:

A legitimate pattern piece is made only by the government or by direct commissioning of such work.

If any privately made, non-commissioned piece includes the national identifier and a legal tender valuation, then is a correctly called a counterfeit coin.

Morbiducci was invited by the Irish government to submit designs, after which he was paid £50. It would interesting to know who retained the copyrights of the designs once submitted and if it was dependent on being selected for use in the final design. 

These pieces may not fit your or the U.S. Mint's definition of a pattern but I would classify them as a pattern of some sort. Counterfeit? Not even close imo unless there was some sort of copyright infringement if the government owned the rights to the designs once submitted. 

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  Henri/Quintus, you're a trouble-maker.

H/Q:  I know.  

[zadok]

On 2/22/2024 at 8:33 PM, RWB said:

A legitimate pattern piece is made only by the government or by direct commissioning of such work.

If any privately made, non-commissioned piece includes the national identifier and a legal tender valuation, then is a correctly called a counterfeit coin.

...once again just one persons position not substantiated by anything official by any recognized source...more of the I, Me, Mine garbage we see here all the time...

[zadok]

On 2/22/2024 at 6:14 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I think we all agree that it is a privately made piece which was not commissioned by the government but presumably by the artist who submitted the designs to the committee. Why could there not be patterns for unaffiliated medals or tokens? Why couldn't a private party commission patterns of prospective designs? Perhaps Morbiducci medal or design pattern would be a better description.

 

...no one ever insinuated  those pcs were commissioned or produced by anyone other than the originator, there r just some persons who feel they must have the last say on everything even if they know nothing of what they r speaking of, but guess it goes with the forum territory...one just has to consider the source n dismiss it for what it is...in this case ur point is well taken, patterns could n r produced by many different sources n do not need be from any gov't agency...european auctions r replete with many such items, i personally would not refer to them as medals or tokens for several different reasons...models n patterns could be used interchangeably but i think they r usually associated as being made of different materials but that too is subjective...ur suggestion of design pattern fits accurately...many of the worlds n quasi-official expositions n fairs have non-gov't authorized numismatic items n many of those have known patterns that were struck....

[zadok]

On 2/22/2024 at 5:42 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Here are the original Metcalfe designs, see below. Not much changed with the penny, the hound, hunter, pig, and bull were altered to greater extents. 

Final designs below.

...u will note in his design submissions he produced two separate designs for the 1/2 pence n the committee chose the pig design, n yes the committee did request that he alter his designs slightly...it was interesting that the committee evaluated the designs for each denomination individually in a blind test n that metcalf's designs were chosen in all 8 cases, the overall series designs were not chosen as a set but it ironically it turned out that way...i have copies of all of the designs from all 7 artists n its interesting to compare them the same way that the committee evaluated them....

[Zebo]

Since we are talking semantics - here is a good one for you posted by a well known auction house/dealer. What’s wrong with their description???

 

AND - they listed this piece as they did even though it is correctly described on the TPG holder. Maybe its an AI listing.

Edited February 23 by Zebo
Added content

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/23/2024 at 3:49 PM, Zebo said:

Since we are talking semantics - here is a good one for you posted by a well known auction house. What’s wrong with their description???

 

 

AND - they listed this piece as they did even though it is correctly described on the TPG holder. Maybe its an AI listing.

I had placed a bid on this one. 

The use of the word token is what popped out at me when I saw the listing previously. I'm not sure it's an AI description or not, a pretty short one if it is.

[Zebo]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:06 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I had placed a bid on this one. 

The use of the word token is what popped out at me when I saw the listing previously. I'm not sure it's an AI description or not, a pretty short one if it is.

Beats me if it is an AI error or just the person cataloging it. Pretty weird listing in any event.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:08 PM, Zebo said:

Beats me if it is an AI error or just the person cataloging it. Pretty weird listing in any event.

I was hoping that the listing would discourage people from bidding and that I would be able to pick this up for a deal. No such luck this time.

The listing for this piece, and a few others, is what prompted my previous thread on GPT descriptions.

[RWB]

On 2/23/2024 at 7:06 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Counterfeit? Not even close imo unless there was some sort of copyright infringement if the government owned the rights to the designs once submitted. 

Counterfeiting laws have no relationship to who owns the design. The language used is something like the US words "likeness or a similitude" which also covers slugs and blanks when used in place of coins. (Years ago Iceland's 25 aurar bronze coins would operate US vending machines as if they were quarters. Customs confiscated bags/boxes of these from travelers intent on passing them as 25-cents.)

[Zebo]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:42 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I was hoping that the listing would discourage people from bidding and that I would be able to pick this up for a deal. No such luck this time.

The listing for this piece, and a few others, is what prompted my previous thread on GPT descriptions.

Sorry…. At least I now know that you placed a bid, so I won’t. Good luck.

I was wondering where the GPT thread came from.

Edited February 23 by Zebo

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:50 PM, Zebo said:

Sorry…. At least I now know that you placed a bid, so I won’t. Good luck....

I used to "cheat" on eBay. If there was a new listing, start bid $1.00, I would speed things up by bidding melt value. That would eliminate the bottom feeders and give me a better idea of who the principals were and save me the trouble of having to check back regularly. As everyone knows, the final hour is critical -- and you'll never know if someone had preemptively outbid you until it's too late. I think it's very admirable of you to step aside where anonymity is guaranteed.