The quality of work of NGC experts become terrible! 2 2

[medved]

I understand that grading and numismatics are different things. Grading is simply a business and the provision of services. But when we receive a service for our money, we want to receive a quality service performed by professionals. But not a fault made by an amateur. I won’t talk about the numbers given to coins - these are all subjective things. Although, I just can’t understand how MS65 can be given to the coin with green oxide stains on it. (Latvia 1 santims 1922 MS65RB 5790621-006)
I want to talk about something else. I will not describe all the examples (believe me there are many), I will only touch on some of them. We will talk about the coins of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. I understand that these are small countries, and many people do not even know about their existence, nevertheless, coins from these countries are also sent to NGC for grading.

Estonia
3 marka 1926. Unfortunately, the photo of the slabbed coin is not available (my SSD broke, and a lot of data was lost), but the photos of the coin before grading are still available.

3 marka 1926 obverse          3 marka 1926 reverse

The coin was sent to NGC between 2011 and 2016. The coin was counterfeit, but was graded by NGC as "XF Details". The counterfeit coin differed from the original by weight, color and edge shape.

Edge of original coin          Edge of counterfeit coin

Moreover, there were traces on the rim of the coin after the edge was forming. It's hard to see the traces on the rim of the coin in these old photos. But I have a photo of another similar counterfeit coin, and these marks are very clearly visible, they go along the entire rim, and are especially clearly visible in the upper part of the coin. This type of counterfeit was made in Lithuania.

Photo of the counterfeit coin with traces on the rim

So, how could such a coin be sealed in a slab, if only one edge shows that it is a counterfeit coin?

OK next Latvia, a few examples of slab descriptions.
The first example is my favorite. 1 santims 1928 with the inscription on the coin "Name below ribbon" (MS65RB 2760076-006).

2760076-006 Obverse          2760076-006 Reverse

Let's look at the "names" on the bronze coins.

Location of the "names"          The "names"

There are two types of "names", the first is the designer's name "R. ZARRINS" found on the reverse of the coin. Please note that there are no ribbons on the reverse! Another "name" HUGUENIN is on the obverse of the coins under the coat of arms ribbon. But only on bronze coins dated 1922-1924! Why? Because only these Latvian coins were minted in Switzerland at the Huguenin Freres & Co mint and were marked by mint with the mint's name! All other silver coins and bronze coins from 1926-1935 were minted in the UK at three different mints, none of which marked the coins with their name!

Question. How can a 1928 coin minted in the UK have the “name” of the Swiss mint on it? Moreover, how did the NGC find the “name” of the Swiss mint on a 1928 coin and write it on the slab? What kind of super-mega-vision did they use for this?

OK, the next modern coin, dated 1996, hope it will be easier for NGC, but….

10 latu 1996 "Corncrake" obverse        10 latu 1996 "Corncrake" reverse

There are four types, which we know now and which are easy to identify. All four types have differences on the obverse and reverse, but the easiest way to determine them is by obverse and edge.
The first two types – Large Letters and Small Letters. Easily identified by the letter “E” (both coins have a lettered edge).

Large/Small letters

Normally all coins have lettered edges, but some of them have ribbed edges – this is type #3

Lettered/Ribbed Edge

And the last type – coins dated 1995

1995 Corncrake

The obverse was minted using one of the dies from the previous 10 latu 1995 “Gaff-sail schooner Julia Maria”. Which was minted at the same mint.

10 latu 1995 "Julia Maria" obverse          10 latu 1995 "Julia Maria" reverse

So, you can see 4 types (varieties) which very simply can be identified, isn’t it?

The story begins with a coin with a ribbed edge. A description of the coin was made for the NGC, in which an explanation was given with images that there is an edge with an inscription and a ribbed edge, and a request was made to indicate on the slab variety (that this coin has a ribbed edge). All information was printed and submitted with the NGC form, where "variety" was noted. The result is that they took money for the variety but did not write anything on the slab.

Result #1

OK, I tried to send it one more time and made a huge description that explained the all differences between coins. All possible varieties, a lot of images etc. And ask please write “Reeded edge”. The result this:

Result #2

“RE - Griffin with tail”. What is it? Is it a problem to write just “Ribbed Edge”?

OK, third take. I send a few coins and write again a new, huge letter. Moreover, I found the coin with the correct normal description added the number of this coin to my letter and asked NGC a third time - Is it possible to mention on the slabs “Reeded Edge”? Pay money for variety third time of course. I also explained in my letter that mentioning “Griffin with tale” is not correct regarding this “Corncrake” coin, because ALL these coins have “Griffin with tail” and no coins exist with “Griffin without tale”. I explained that “with or without tale” varieties exist, but regarding another coin, not “Corncrake”, but 10 latu 1995 “Gaff-sail schooner Julia Maria”. “Julia Maria” has 5 different varieties of obverse – one of them - ”Griffin without tale”. But “Corncrake” – don’t have!

"Julia Maria with tale"          "Julia Maria without tale"

So please write on the slabs: “Lettered Edge” and “Reeded Edge” – That’s all I asking. Again everything was printed and sent together with the form. The result:

Result #3.1          Result#3.2

Three times asked, three times paid money for that, an example of a coin with the correct inscription was shown, three times sending printed explanation letters with images of varieties. I cannot understand what kind of insufficiently_thoughtful_person is working there, I give up, I'm very tired of trying to explain to the dumb people elementary things.

And the last story about Latvian coins will be about 2 santimi 1937. There are two slabs 3352292-010 and 3212458-001. And both of them are counterfeit! These coins were made in Lithuania.

First, both of them do have not correct weights. The correct weight of these coins must be 1.99 – 2.00 g. The counterfeit coins are usually 2.3 – 2.6 g, sometimes 1.90 g. And the second thing which every amateur collector of Latvian coin knows – it is a mark on the leaf under the coat of arms. The stripe on the leaf. If you see this stripe, you know – this is a 100% counterfeit coin.

Mark on counterfeit coin

No comments.

And now let’s talk about Lithuania. The last straw of the dilettantism of the NGC into my cup of patience. After that, I decided to write this article.
We will talk about 5 litai 1999 coins. Some of them with striking errors which can be called “die chip”

5 litai 1999 with error

This piece of metal looks like a bird or rooster, that’s why some people sometimes call these coins “5 litai with bird”. Some of the amateurs think – this is the mint mark, but we know that these coins were minted on the Lithuanian mint and the mint mark of this mint looks different. But the Lithuanian mint never used mint marks on these coins. Moreover, a request was made to the Lithuanian Bank regarding this error. An answer was received. It is saying: “In response to your letter, we inform you that the speck you indicated on the surface of the coin, located on the left side of the reverse, is not an element of design, but a small technological defect, within the acceptable limits of the approved technical requirements for the circulating 5 litas of the Republic of Lithuania.”

Official Bank's answer

So, you can see – the usual die error. But what NGC said?

NGC graded 5 litai 1999

Rooster Mint Mark – Checkmate!
 

Dear NGC if you don’t have enough experts who can recognize coins of Baltic States – maybe I can help? For free! I'm very tired of seeing what you're doing with these coins. Totally zero professionalism.

P.S. Later I'll make pdf file with images, here I cannot add normally.

[Henri Charriere]

I do not know what is more shocking:  the allegations you've made -- or the fact NGC saw fit to publish them.

One could argue they were published because they lacked substance but I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt.  It will take only one member intimately familiar with the subject matter, if not the precise details, to speak up. I look forward to hearing informed feedback which I trust will be forthcoming.

(Incidentally, what does your notation,  "Rooster Mint Mark -- Checkmate" mean?)

[medved]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:27 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Incidentally, what does your notation,  "Rooster Mint Mark -- Checkmate" mean?

It is not very hard to check what kind of coin you are checking, especially if it is a modern European coin, especially if you take money for that, especially if you take additional money for that.
How is possible to recognize a die chip as a mint mark? OK, even if this error looks like a mint mark, no need special skills to ask Google about the Bank of Lithuania, open the link and open the page with the coins list, where you can see the mint name, etc. You don't need even catalogs for that.
This phrase means - "We don't care, we just take money - and this is the mint mark"

About Latvian coins, you can read here - People who moderate this catalog are much more familiar with these type of coins than NGC experts. Probably you will see there the name "Mihails Božko" this is my name, nice to meet you.

About this article. People who will read, can believe me or not - I really don't care. But very strange do not believe in Lithuanian coin for example. You have the fact of minting coin at Lithuania mint, you have official letter from Lithuanian bank, and you have NGC slab. Anyway, the people who are familiar with these coins will see and understand how NGC working.

All the Best,

Mihails Božko

Latvian Numismatic Society
mihailbozko@gmail.com

+371 26019060

Edited January 29 by medved

[medved]

Link to the PDF file with article and pictures

[Henri Charriere]

Unfortunately, the vast majority of members, I assume, do not collect these coins, are unfamiliar with them and may have never seen them -- or the countries they are from.

Be that as it nay, and now I speak from experience, I have been a member here for five years and can count the number of collectors who have contacted me regarding my line of coins, the F20F Gold Rooster -- on two fingers.  I have two Set Registries, one here, one "there." No feedback.  Ninety-some-odd members collect them, but virtually no one has anything to say about them

On a hunch, curious as to why no one has responded to your entreaties, positively or negatively, I checked the numbers on these Baltic States. What I found is confounding.  There are 80 set registrants of Lithuanian coins, the same number collecting gold roosters. Another 167 collecting coins from Latvia, and a whopping 392 collecting the coins from Estonia.

I don't get it.  There are 639 collectors of these coins who have placed them in set registries, and not one has anything to say?  Is there no one who can offer a theory as to why the OP, a fellow hobbyist is encountering problems regarding attributions?  

I see two options:  One, PM a set registrants, and/or, Two:  Avail yourself of the "Ask NGC" thread which is among a few that may be found preceding the main body of Topic offerings.  You have nothing to lose. Considering mail volume, I would limit my query to the aspect of attribution that concerns you most.

 

[medved]

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Unfortunately, the vast majority of members, I assume, do not collect these coins, are unfamiliar with them and may have never seen them -- or the countries they are from.

Absolutely agree

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

On a hunch, curious as to why no one has responded to your entreaties, positively or negatively.

This is not a main point of this article.

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I checked the numbers on these Baltic States. What I found is confounding.  There are 80 set registrants of Lithuanian coins, the same number collecting gold roosters. Another 167 collecting coins from Latvia, and a whopping 392 collecting the coins from Estonia.

A lot of people collect coins from these Baltic countries. In Europe, in these countries themselves, and in Russia. On Russian and European numismatic forums, there are entire sections on coins of the countries of the former USSR. Many varieties of these coins became known with the help of Russian collectors. Moreover, a lot of people do not like slabs and prefer to have the opportunity to hold a coin in their hands. Many people break slabs and take coins out of them to put in an album or special box. This number of users that you counted on the NGC forum is a small drop in the ocean of collectors of these coins. It is obvious to many that NGC and other similar companies have nothing to do with numismatics. These are companies that simply make money from fans of plastic boxes. If you take three large silver coins and take them out of the slabs, 95% of the collectors of these slabs will not be able to tell where MS64, MS65 & MS66 are.

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

the OP, a fellow hobbyist is encountering problems regarding attributions?

I'm not an amateur collector. I am a professional numismatist. Few people are as familiar with Latvian coins as I am; I wrote many articles about these coins, including publications in numismatic magazines. Currently, I am working on a book about Latvian coins. 10 years ago, I received a silver medal for my article at a European forum. And believe me, I have absolutely no problems with the attribution of these coins. NGC has problems with this, not me.

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I see two options:  One, PM a set registrants, and/or, Two:  Avail yourself of the "Ask NGC" thread which is among a few that may be found preceding the main body of Topic offerings.  You have nothing to lose. Considering mail volume, I would limit my query to the aspect of attribution that concerns you most.

This is not the point of this article. 
It is very hard to communicate with "American-style" people (I don't want to insult Americans), but usually answer (if the answer will be) something like that: "I don't know", "I can't guarantee", "Wait our response", "We think you are not right" etc.
The main point to show the quality of the work of NGC, this is it.