1920 LC Woody? 1 1

[Rykel]

Okay I had posted a 1982 Lincoln cent which I thought was possibly a woody and it wasn't I'm learning the difference between roller lines and a real Woody this coin has fit black lines mixed in on the obverse still need help.

 

[Sandon]

    I assume that by a "woody" you mean a copper coin with "woodgrain" toning. Your 1920 Lincoln cent is well-worn, and the dark streaks are more likely the result of environmental exposure than its original alloy mixture.  

   I think that my 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent has this type of toning, as I recall do many "S" mint cents of that year.  Note the mottled pattern (not solid-colored streaks) on both sides of the coin:

 

[Rykel]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:04 PM, Sandon said:

    I assume that by a "woody" you mean a copper coin with "woodgrain" toning. Your 1920 Lincoln cent is well-worn, and the dark streaks are more likely the result of environmental exposure than its original alloy mixture.  

   I think that my 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cent has this type of toning, as I recall do many "S" mint cents of that year.  Note the mottled pattern (not solid-colored streaks) on both sides of the coin:

 

Thank you sir for telling me correct terminology. I do see what you are talking about with your 1909 coin. I do see the pattern the mixture and the streaks high thought I had found a wood grain coin but I was told it was just roller marks. I would appreciate your opinion on it I posted three pictures you can also see on the reverse there is a discolored yellowish stripe on the back. I also saw an image of a 1921 wood grain coin that had thicker black course lines going through it but that was on YouTube and I know a lot of the information is incorrect.

Thank you for taking your time to respond and help me out.

 

[Coinbuf]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:29 PM, Rykel said:

Okay I had posted a 1982 Lincoln cent which I thought was possibly a woody and it wasn't I'm learning the difference between roller lines and a real Woody this coin has fit black lines mixed in on the obverse still need help.

Is there some reason that you are so interested in this "woody" look on Lincoln cents?   I have been collecting Lincolns for 40+ years and while a nice woody can be attractive and interesting at some level, these are not widely or aggressively collected by most Lincoln collectors.   I read your other thread and in fact I would consider that coin as a woody, much more so than I would this coin which appears to be stained as opposed to an improper alloy mixture which is what causes the visual look of a woody.

Obviously if you enjoy this look there is nothing wrong with collecting them, but there is no real value to a coin with a woody appearance over the numismatic (or lack thereof) value of the coin.   If this look is of interest to you, I suggest that you look at the early years, 1909 to around the late teens as those are the years where you will see this look most often.

[Sandon]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:23 PM, Coinbuf said:

these [Lincoln cents with a woodgrain appearance] are not widely or aggressively collected by most Lincoln collectors. 

    I've never known them to be popular either and, in some cases, to be considered a negative rather than a positive characteristic. 

    In his discussion of 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents, the late David W. Lange, in The Complete Guide to Lincoln Cents (2005), at p.98, states, "Untoned or lightly toned pieces may display a streaky, wood-grained effect from imperfect alloying. This is quite common for cents produced during the first decade or so of cent coinage at San Francisco, and it is frequently seen on 1908-S and 1909-S Indian Cents, as well.  This phenomenon gradually disappeared around the early [to] mid 1920s."

   Lange mentions this characteristic with reference to other early "S" mint cents, though generally not those from other mints or later issues.  HIs other most extensive discussion appears regarding 1916-S cents where he states (p.121), "As with most S-mint cents of the years 1908-23, the planchet stock utilized for 1916-S was seldom alloyed properly. Uncleaned, Mint State coins with original color will frequently display a woodgrain patten of faint, elongated stains . . ..   The effect of elongation occurs when the strip is processed through a succession of rollers to obtain its proper thickness before punching out the blanks.  This coloration is desirable to some and distracting to others, but it only affects a coin's grade and subsequent value when truly severe."

    Streakiness on copper and copper alloy coins, which are chemically quite reactive, can occur from a variety of causes other than improper alloying. Coins stored in the paper envelopes or wrappers used decades ago are often seen with streaky toning. The obverse streaks on the 1982 large date Lincoln cent shown here and on your previous topic, are quite unlike the "woodgrain" pattern seen on the early "S" mint cents and are likely from other causes. You are welcome to collect whatever coins you find interesting, but I doubt that streaky copper coins will ever have much of a following. 

   

[Rykel]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:23 PM, Coinbuf said:

 

Obviously if you enjoy this look there is nothing wrong with collecting them, but there is no real value

No sir no particular reason. Just trying to learn more about the minting process and how different errors occur. It seems there is a lot of misinformation on the web so I'm just trying to pick through it as best I can. I do believe I have a much better understanding of what causes the wood grain look on the planchet and certain details it should have.  Thank you for your time time and responding.

[RWB]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:25 PM, Sandon said:

  In his discussion of 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents, the late David W. Lange, in The Complete Guide to Lincoln Cents (2005), at p.98, states, "Untoned or lightly toned pieces may display a streaky, wood-grained effect from imperfect alloying. This is quite common for cents produced during the first decade or so of cent coinage at San Francisco, and it is frequently seen on 1908-S and 1909-S Indian Cents, as well.  This phenomenon gradually disappeared around the early [to] mid 1920s."

Dave and I had several brief conversations about so-called "wood grain" tarnish, but could never come to agreement on the cause. Attributing it to "imperfect alloying" could not be demonstrated without precise testing, and Dave did not have data. This left toning attributable to some near-final step in planchet manufacture possibly copper rolling prior to blank cutting by Scoville Mfg Co., the supplier of cent blanks.

That this "wood grain" is found among Indian and Lincoln cents from all mints for nearly twenty years, points to a single source. Further there is no mention of any visual defect in new cent color by Mint sources -- it seems noticeable only after passage of time. It is always if the form of linear streaks, indicating it arises from an analogous linear manufacturing process. Last, not all coins are affected implying that there could have been several sets of production equipment, but only one that created the unusual toning conditions.

Edited December 30, 2023 by RWB

[dcarr]

The lighter-color streaks are likely a different alloy (such as brass or similar). The rest of it is normal bronze. The streaks show up later because one alloy does not tone as dark as the other basic bronze.

Bronze is mostly copper with a small percentage of tin (and no significant amount of zinc).

Brass is mostly copper with a small amount of zinc (but not any significant amount of tin).

Mixing, melting, and pouring metals is a messy job and improper mixtures can occur. Tin, zinc, and maybe even small amounts of silver and/or gold getting into the mix can change the properties.

The elongated "woodgrain" pattern is formed when the bronze ingots are rolled out into strips for planchet stock. During the rolling, the ingots do not get wider - they only get longer. So any structures and defects in the ingots get elongated in one direction only.

This coin is a good example and evidence for the theory. I found it in a dealer's "junk" box as a cheap damaged coin. But it is actually a genuine clipped-planchet mint error. Most clips are, of course, curved to approximately the same radius as the planchet punch. However, this particular clip is straight because the planchet was punched partially off the edge of the strip. The point to this is that the "woodgrain" streaks are parallel to the straight edge. They are both oriented in the direction of rolling. Conversely, the flat edge being parallel to the "woodgrain" is an indication of a genuine straight-clip.

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by dcarr

[VKurtB]

On 12/31/2023 at 3:37 AM, dcarr said:

Mixing, melting, and pouring metals is a messy job and improper mixtures can occur

Not to mention third degree burns. 

[ldhair]

This one is not very common but it would be worth more without the wood-grain look. Most folks want nice color on matte proofs.