20 LIRE RED GOLD 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:29 PM, Franz Joseph said:

I can point red colour where it is. Every day,every night. Some people obviesly can not.

 

They may be "color-blind."

[zadok]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:21 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[Vocabulary tsunami!  You have nothing to fear. I merely wanted to point out that all sources, including the "French Red Book" insist the Restrikes are distinguishable from the Originals by their redder color.  However, I have plenty of high-grade examples which suggest there are many exceptions to the contrary.  Problem is, the entire F20F GR line is comprised of an identical 90% gold/10% copper alloy.]  

...a rose is a rose is a rose...but a red rose is a red rose is maybe a red rose...too subjective to determine, hence ngc reluctance to certify as a variety...my only question at the moment is whether the edge lettering is a determinate, i guess i will need to get my roosters out n look, i hesitate to do that as i mite be tempted to start a new registry set n no one wants to see a grown man cry....

[Zebo]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:21 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[Vocabulary tsunami!  You have nothing to fear. I merely wanted to point out that all sources, including the "French Red Book" insist the Restrikes are distinguishable from the Originals by their redder color.  However, I have plenty of high-grade examples which suggest there are many exceptions to the contrary.  Problem is, the entire F20F GR line is comprised of an identical 90% gold/10% copper alloy.]  

Is that French Red Book really Red? I’m not sure. 

[zadok]

On 12/23/2023 at 2:18 PM, Zebo said:

Is that French Red Book really Red? I’m not sure. 

...possibly rouge? but maybe roux? n could be vermeil?...the real question is it really french??....

[VKurtB]

On 12/23/2023 at 1:25 PM, zadok said:

...possibly rouge? but maybe roux? n could be vermeil?...the real question is it really french??....

Oui.

[VKurtB]

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:54 PM, zadok said:

....my only question at the moment is whether the edge lettering is a determinate,....

I can save you the trouble -- and tears.  Whatever the reason, varieties as we know them are not recognized in the Rooster line and there are a few.

As you know, "Dieu Protege La France," or God Protect France is the edge lettering used on the Originals (1899-1906).  "Liberte Equalite Fraternite," or Liberty Equality Brotherhood is used on the Restrikes (1907-1914).

Malhereusement, an unknown number of Restrikes bear the earlier edge lettering, and with the absence of official recognition, edge lettering on many encapsulations completely defeat any attempt to distinguish which restrike may have it.  While the older roosters appear to be darker, many new ones can be found bearing a distinct coppery glow, and yet the alloy used for both are the same.

[Franz Joseph]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I can save you the trouble -- and tears.  Whatever the reason, varieties as we know them are not recognized in the Rooster line and there are a few.

As you know, "Dieu Protege La France," or God Protect France is the edge lettering used on the Originals (1899-1906).  "Liberte Equalite Fraternite," or Liberty Equality Brotherhood is used on the Restrikes (1907-1914).

Malhereusement, an unknown number of Restrikes bear the earlier edge lettering, and with the absence of official recognition, edge lettering on many encapsulations completely defeat any attempt to distinguish which restrike may have it.  While the older roosters appear to be darker, many new ones can be found bearing a distinct coppery glow, and yet the alloy used for both are the same.

So we have the same colour issue as from the bronze coins- but they are distinguished  as red to brown by the NGC!!!  It does not matter which alloy is but only the colour of the coin.   If you have coins officialy minted and cataloged in 2 colours than NGC should grade those as such! MUST GRADE!

It is not possible to alter the colour during the minting process or heating  or... It is the alloy which determines the colour( speaking only for gold!!!)

When the coins are encapsulated all the details are gone -colour(if coins are in 2 colours),edge lettering... You have a coin which you have to remove from the holder to see the details!!! This is a big NGC fault! And they do not want to recognize it!

[Sandon]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:19 AM, Franz Joseph said:

So we have the same colour issue as from the bronze coins- but they are distinguished  as red to brown by the NGC!!!

   No, we don't have the same issue! Every pure copper or 95% or more copper bronze or brass coin starts out "red" when struck. It changes to "red and brown" and/or "brown" due to chemical reactions with substances in the atmosphere to which it has been exposed or on surfaces with which it has come in contact, even if it has no circulation wear. Among most collectors, the more original "red" color such a copper or copper alloy coin has, the more desirable it is. The distinction is one made for grading purposes and is somewhat subjective. 

   Everyone who has collected gold alloy coins knows that they, too, can vary somewhat in color based upon environmental exposure or possibly manufacturing processes. U.S. gold coins minted from 1837 until 1933 are supposed to all be composed of 90% gold, 10% copper, but they vary in color from a bright yellow to a more orange to even a reddish tint. Earlier U.S. gold coins were struck in either .9167 (1795-1834) or .8992 (1834-37) gold, with silver as well as copper in their alloys. They, too, may vary in color. The color differences aren't verbally distinguished among collectors or grading services, although a gold coin might achieve a slightly higher numerical grade based upon an attractive color adding to its "eye appeal."

  The 1882 Italian gold coin to which you are referring is distinguished as a different variety based on its being struck in a different alloy from the others. "Red gold" is a variety designation, not a grading term. Presumably, NGC's graders are concerned that they can't tell whether one of these coins was actually struck in "red gold" just by looking at it and don't want to take the chance that the coin turns out to be "red" due to environmental factors, not a 10% copper alloy. They have the right to make this determination as a business matter. You have the right not to use their services or to regard your coin as "red gold" and so label its holder as you wish.

   Generally, NGC will not identify a variety that is not listed in NGC's "VarietyPlus" listing. The 1882 "Red Gold" 20 lire is not so listed. See G20L | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com). The inclusion of a registry slot for this variety, likely by a programmer who hadn't consulted with the graders about this, was misleading and to that extent you have a valid cause for complaint.   

   

[Franz Joseph]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:07 PM, Sandon said:

   No, we don't have the same issue! Every pure copper or 95% or more copper bronze or brass coin starts out "red" when struck. It changes to "red and brown" and/or "brown" due to chemical reactions with substances in the atmosphere to which it has been exposed or on surfaces with which it has come in contact, even if it has no circulation wear. Among most collectors, the more original "red" color such a copper or copper alloy coin has, the more desirable it is. The distinction is one made for grading purposes and is somewhat subjective. 

   Everyone who has collected gold alloy coins knows that they, too, can vary somewhat in color based upon environmental exposure or possibly manufacturing processes. U.S. gold coins minted from 1837 until 1933 are supposed to all be composed of 90% gold, 10% copper, but they vary in color from a bright yellow to a more orange to even a reddish tint. Earlier U.S. gold coins were struck in either .9167 (1795-1834) or .8992 (1834-37) gold, with silver as well as copper in their alloys. They, too, may vary in color. The color differences aren't verbally distinguished among collectors or grading services, although a gold coin might achieve a slightly higher numerical grade based upon an attractive color adding to its "eye appeal."

  The 1882 Italian gold coin to which you are referring is distinguished as a different variety based on its being struck in a different alloy from the others. "Red gold" is a variety designation, not a grading term. Presumably, NGC's graders are concerned that they can't tell whether one of these coins was actually struck in "red gold" just by looking at it and don't want to take the chance that the coin turns out to be "red" due to environmental factors, not a 10% copper alloy. They have the right to make this determination as a business matter. You have the right not to use their services or to regard your coin as "red gold" and so label its holder as you wish.

   Generally, NGC will not identify a variety that is not listed in NGC's "VarietyPlus" listing. The 1882 "Red Gold" 20 lire is not so listed. See G20L | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com). The inclusion of a registry slot for this variety, likely by a programmer who hadn't consulted with the graders about this, was misleading and to that extent you have a valid cause for complaint.   

   

The coin has been listed in NGC competitive set until this discussion ! This coin is a variety as much as a different year in the coin.Perhaps all coins should be graded a s 20 Lire because during some process they can not be sure which year they are??? Stupid analogy I beleive!

[Zebo]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:07 PM, Sandon said:

   No, we don't have the same issue! Every pure copper or 95% or more copper bronze or brass coin starts out "red" when struck. It changes to "red and brown" and/or "brown" due to chemical reactions with substances in the atmosphere to which it has been exposed or on surfaces with which it has come in contact, even if it has no circulation wear. Among most collectors, the more original "red" color such a copper or copper alloy coin has, the more desirable it is. The distinction is one made for grading purposes and is somewhat subjective. 

 

I was just going to mention this. Nice explanation. 

[Zebo]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:31 PM, Franz Joseph said:

The coin has been listed in NGC competitive set until this discussion !

I am sure it can be added back into your registry set if you ask politely minus the red designation of course.

From NGC: There seems to be some confusion as to exactly what constitutes a variety. In United States numismatics, a variety may be defined as a die or die pairing that offers some distinctive feature not a normal part of the design. For early U. S. coins, those made before the introduction of the reducing lathe in 1836, every die required extensive hand punching of letters, numerals and other small features. Therefore, each and every die was distinctive, and each die pairing constitutes a variety. Thus, all coins from this period are of some identifiable variety, and each die pairing may be identified by number under NGC's VarietyPlus service.

NGC utilizes numerous other designations that do not, however, constitute varieties. These include designations such as FH for Full Head, FT for Full Torch and FBL for Full Bell Lines.Likewise, the designations BN, RB and RD for Brown, Red-Brown and Red, respectively, are not varieties.

I expect that this includes world coins as well.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Zebo
Clarification & addition of what is a variety

[Franz Joseph]

As you can see PCGS can grade and distinguish red from the other colours! So PCGS not competent for grading ?Also- Standard Catalog of World Coins - 2001–Date, 14th Edition, publication date 2019, Krause Publications is not competent book?

PLEASE!!!!

[Franz Joseph]

This is a nice example of variety - Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com)

[zadok]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:14 AM, Henri Charriere said:

I can save you the trouble -- and tears.  Whatever the reason, varieties as we know them are not recognized in the Rooster line and there are a few.

As you know, "Dieu Protege La France," or God Protect France is the edge lettering used on the Originals (1899-1906).  "Liberte Equalite Fraternite," or Liberty Equality Brotherhood is used on the Restrikes (1907-1914).

Malhereusement, an unknown number of Restrikes bear the earlier edge lettering, and with the absence of official recognition, edge lettering on many encapsulations completely defeat any attempt to distinguish which restrike may have it.  While the older roosters appear to be darker, many new ones can be found bearing a distinct coppery glow, and yet the alloy used for both are the same.

...the tears would not be mine....

[zadok]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:19 AM, Franz Joseph said:

So we have the same colour issue as from the bronze coins- but they are distinguished  as red to brown by the NGC!!!  It does not matter which alloy is but only the colour of the coin.   If you have coins officialy minted and cataloged in 2 colours than NGC should grade those as such! MUST GRADE!

It is not possible to alter the colour during the minting process or heating  or... It is the alloy which determines the colour( speaking only for gold!!!)

When the coins are encapsulated all the details are gone -colour(if coins are in 2 colours),edge lettering... You have a coin which you have to remove from the holder to see the details!!! This is a big NGC fault! And they do not want to recognize it!

...wrong on so many fronts....

[VKurtB]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:35 PM, Franz Joseph said:

This is a nice example of variety - Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com)

Bottom line, FJ, you don’t get to make policy for NGC. NGC does. End of story.  

[zadok]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:07 PM, Sandon said:

   No, we don't have the same issue! Every pure copper or 95% or more copper bronze or brass coin starts out "red" when struck. It changes to "red and brown" and/or "brown" due to chemical reactions with substances in the atmosphere to which it has been exposed or on surfaces with which it has come in contact, even if it has no circulation wear. Among most collectors, the more original "red" color such a copper or copper alloy coin has, the more desirable it is. The distinction is one made for grading purposes and is somewhat subjective. 

   Everyone who has collected gold alloy coins knows that they, too, can vary somewhat in color based upon environmental exposure or possibly manufacturing processes. U.S. gold coins minted from 1837 until 1933 are supposed to all be composed of 90% gold, 10% copper, but they vary in color from a bright yellow to a more orange to even a reddish tint. Earlier U.S. gold coins were struck in either .9167 (1795-1834) or .8992 (1834-37) gold, with silver as well as copper in their alloys. They, too, may vary in color. The color differences aren't verbally distinguished among collectors or grading services, although a gold coin might achieve a slightly higher numerical grade based upon an attractive color adding to its "eye appeal."

  The 1882 Italian gold coin to which you are referring is distinguished as a different variety based on its being struck in a different alloy from the others. "Red gold" is a variety designation, not a grading term. Presumably, NGC's graders are concerned that they can't tell whether one of these coins was actually struck in "red gold" just by looking at it and don't want to take the chance that the coin turns out to be "red" due to environmental factors, not a 10% copper alloy. They have the right to make this determination as a business matter. You have the right not to use their services or to regard your coin as "red gold" and so label its holder as you wish.

   Generally, NGC will not identify a variety that is not listed in NGC's "VarietyPlus" listing. The 1882 "Red Gold" 20 lire is not so listed. See G20L | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com). The inclusion of a registry slot for this variety, likely by a programmer who hadn't consulted with the graders about this, was misleading and to that extent you have a valid cause for complaint.   

   

...right on all fronts....

[VKurtB]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:29 PM, Franz Joseph said:

As you can see PCGS can grade and distinguish red from the other colours! So PCGS not competent for grading ?Also- Standard Catalog of World Coins - 2001–Date, 14th Edition, publication date 2019, Krause Publications is not competent book?

PLEASE!!!!

[zadok]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:29 PM, Franz Joseph said:

As you can see PCGS can grade and distinguish red from the other colours! So PCGS not competent for grading ?Also- Standard Catalog of World Coins - 2001–Date, 14th Edition, publication date 2019, Krause Publications is not competent book?

PLEASE!!!!

...many of the standard reference books have incorrect documentation n have repeated that misinformation over n over again edition after edition, repeating it does not make it more correct...u r following in these footsteps....

 

On 12/24/2023 at 4:29 PM, Franz Joseph said:

As you can see PCGS can grade and distinguish red from the other colours! So PCGS not competent for grading ?Also- Standard Catalog of World Coins - 2001–Date, 14th Edition, publication date 2019, Krause Publications is not competent book?

PLEASE!!!!

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/24/2023 at 5:30 PM, zadok said:

...the tears would not be mine....

Anyone with bank and perseverance can dethrone me.  It comes with the territory. Nothing personal.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Correct misspelling.

[numisport]

What a great thread about color on gold ! With me it ends up moving to coppers. Sorry another thread some time.

[Zebo]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:35 PM, Franz Joseph said:

This is a nice example of variety - Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com)

RB is a designation - not a variety. It is also used for copper coins and the designation is not based upon an alloy. 

I understand where you are coming from, a 1868 dated Sydney Sovereign was minted using silver on the early strikes and copper on the later strikes. It too could be designated as yellow or red, but it is not. Each TPG does things differently. I believe that NGC has adjudicated this matter - so there is no use beating a dead horse. You have made your argument. Move on to something else. Life is too short.

enjoy Christmas. Hope that you have a nice one.

[Henri Charriere]

Blast from the Past!

🐓  :  Very informative topic, and Sandon's argument was not only clear and convincing, but logical. Irrefutably so.

Q.A.:  Yup, now I know why your older brothers tend to be a coppery color and your younger ones are a gorgeous honey golden hue.  Uncle z said you were all of the gold bullion persuasion but we now know the Originals circulated a whole lot more than the Restrikes, a sizeable number of which not only did not circulate, but were minted many decades later which explains their lovely original mint luster.  Do have a Merry Christmas!  A bientot!

🐓  : Merci. 2024 is going to be a good year.  I am getting a strong feeling we'll find my brothers, "Ten," "Thirteen" and "Fourteen," in tip-top, fleur de coin, shape!   Merry Christmas to all!

Edited December 25, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Word substitution.

[Franz Joseph]

You all ignore the facts! It does not matter the alloy or minting process- it should be the same as for copper or bronze coins which are stupidly designated based on current colour which will change in years to make a coin in a slab wrongly designated in a few years! When the small amount of coins is in different colour it is not the same colour! Especialy gold coin will never change this colour as we can see they are the same since 1882!

If you ignore the colour  you are no longer a numismatist,or grader or collector ! Why is there no colour designation for silver coins? They also change colour due to environmental process? 

You all understand the logic behind grading copper and bronze coins but not for the silver and gold?  And please no more about varietes.We already agreed what is a variety. Now is time to make a NGC service for numismatist and not for quick money maker with unprofessional graders!

Collectors handbook of Italian coins MONTENEGRO which is published yearly and it is supreme reference book for Italian coins also includes 20 lire in red gold as independent( oro rosso-red gold) coin-if this is a variety or not is not the issue but NGC should designate the colour of this rare coins!

And No it is not a mistake in catalogue!

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Franz Joseph

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:43 AM, Franz Joseph said:

You all ignore the facts! It does not matter the alloy or minting process- it should be the same as for copper or bronze coins which are stupidly designated based on current colour which will change in years to make a coin in a slab wrongly designated in a few years! When the small amount of coins is in different colour it is not the same colour! Especialy gold coin will never change this colour as we can see they are the same since 1882!

If you ignore the colour  you are no longer a numismatist,or grader or collector ! Why is there no colour designation for silver coins? They also change colour due to environmental process? 

You all understand the logic behind grading copper and bronze coins but not for the silver and gold?  And please no more about varietes.We already agreed what is a variety. Now is time to make a NGC service for numismatist and not for quick money maker with unprofessional graders!

Collectors handbook of Italian coins MONTENEGRO which is published yearly and it is supreme reference book for Italian coins also includes 20 lire in red gold as independent( oro rosso-red gold) coin-if this is a variety or not is not the issue but NGC should designate the colour of this rare coins!

And No it is not a mistake in catalogue!

Send the coin to PCGS and quit whining, NGC is not going to reverse their policy on this. 

I took a look over at the PCGS population report and it looks like they've only ever graded one 1882, 20 lire "red" gold variety coin. Since, based on OP's avatar, it looks to be in an older generation holder, I'd be very surprised if PCGS still recognizes this variety. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[Franz Joseph]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:28 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Send the coin to PCGS and quit whining, NGC is not going to reverse their policy on this. 

I took a look over at the PCGS population report and it looks like they've only ever graded one 1882, 20 lire "red" gold variety coin. Since, based on OP's avatar, it looks to be in an older generation holder, I'd be very surprised if PCGS still recognizes this variety. 

I will probably send more than just this one coin to PCGS...Every second coin has a wrong description or wrong picture...Definetly poor service in all aspects! 

[Henri Charriere]

Contrary to commonly-held belief, not all gold is the same.

Experts with sophisticated equipment can determine the origin of gold from Australia, the Klondike, Yukon, California, Mexico, Australia and Peru, etc.  The same goes for marijuana (skunk sess) silver (Comstock lode)  "blood" diamonds -- even cocaine. Ever here of Peruvian flake? But, I digress...

I don't quite understand the intensity of your fixation on attribution. Does Red Gold have greater value?  At any given time on eBay, one can find 20 franc gold roosters, like copper cents, that are noticeably more red, reddish-brown and solid brown. They are valued on grade. Not a single label notes the distinction. The French Red Book mentions it in passing. It means nothing. And as you yourself pointed out, the attribute can change over time. I had the least attractive gold rooster I own certified despite its brown color and it turned out to be a Top Pop with only one other (now two) previously certified at that grade: MS-65. When one is certified at MS-66, my coin loses its allure. Big deal. It's inevitable. Who knows, 20 years from now, what's going to stop you from complaining to a TPGS that your once Red Gold Lire, attributed as such, had turned darker?

Edited December 26, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Die-polishing.