20 LIRE RED GOLD 1 1

[Franz Joseph]

Can please anybody explain why 20Lire 1882 RED GOLD-KM #21a is not eligible for grading in NGC?

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:44 PM, Franz Joseph said:

Can please anybody explain why 20Lire 1882 RED GOLD-KM #21a is not eligible for grading in NGC?

 

Don't know why but there are plenty of varieties that NGC does not recognize and many reasons why. Too minor, not popular, not enough examples, not really a variety, etc., if it's not on their variety plus list they probably won't go for it and you should check with NGC prior to sending.

I'm assuming that the "Red" gold coins are due to more copper being added to the some of the batches of gold used to produce the blanks. The batches and color of the metal could potentially vary widely depending on QC at the producing mint or refinery and if true where does NGC draw the line as to what is regular gold colored and what is red gold colored? How much copper and/or silver is in red gold? What is an acceptable range for "Red" gold? Should this be an error and not a variety? Should there be additional color varieties? Is candy apple red acceptable but coral red not? Trying to define that dividing line is, or probably will be, a bigger headache for NGC than it's worth, more unsatisfied people and work to determine type, as opposed to saying they do not differentiate. After thinking about this while writing my response I tend to agree with NGC in not differentiating unless there is a very clear and defined difference between mixes/coins. Could be an interesting discussion.... which I seem to have already had with myself.  Sorry you're unhappy with your results, it's understandable. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[Franz Joseph]

There is yellow gold with 10% Silver and 90% gold and red gold with 10% cooper and 90 % gold. There is nothing between- only these two colours exist. That is why you have in KM#21 regular yellow gold and KM#21a red gold.

[Franz Joseph]

As you can see from the pictures left coin is red.

PCGS grades this coins with no problem!

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:22 PM, Franz Joseph said:

As you can see from the pictures left coin is red.

PCGS grades this coins with no problem!

Can't say as I agree with NGC now, assuming the information you've given about the coins is accurate, but it seems that they do not want to differentiate between the two for whatever reason.   You're just going to have to live with it or send it to PCGS or ANACS if they do, it looks like NGC has zero red variants of these in their pop report so no luck finding one in an old slab. You could also continue to try and negotiate with NGC but it would be better to do that outside of the forum. Good luck. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:19 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Can't say as I agree with NGC now, assuming the information you've given about the coins is accurate, but it seems that they do not want to differentiate between the two for whatever reason.   You're just going to have to live with it or send it to PCGS or ANACS if they do, it looks like NGC has zero red variants of these in their pop report so no luck finding one in an old slab. You could also continue to try and negotiate with NGC but it would be better to do that outside of the forum. Good luck. 

NGC obviously doesn’t believe they can guarantee the authentication of the Red. 

[Franz Joseph]

They do not want to tell me the reason. I asked them for the explanation but did not get one. In my opininon if the grader can not distinguish between the colours grading this kind of coins is a night mare.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:29 PM, VKurtB said:

NGC obviously doesn’t believe they can guarantee the authentication of the Red. 

They must know something we don't, or they can't guarantee authentication without exorbitant expense?

[VKurtB]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:37 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

They must know something we don't, or they can't guarantee authentication without exorbitant expense?

I would guess that every authentication would require an XRF scan, and who wants that headache?

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:44 PM, VKurtB said:

I would guess that every authentication would require an XRF scan, and who wants that headache?

Not if you're turning and burning coins through to make a buck. 

Maybe if the OP agreed to pay for the NGC Metallurgic Analysis, cost $75, NGC might change their mind. Is it really worth the cost though? I'd guess not.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[RWB]

The usual US gold coin color distinction is between yellow coin gold, with 90% gold and 5% each copper and silver, and orange (or "French") gold made with 90% gold and 10% copper. Color was also affected by the type of fuel used to anneal strips and blanks. Charcoal was traditional until the switch to natural gas in the 1890s. (The US never used more than 5% silver alloy because 10% made the color too light.)

Edited December 21, 2023 by RWB

[Mike Meenderink]

On 12/20/2023 at 12:47 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Could be an interesting discussion.... which I seem to have already had with myself. 

classic

[Franz Joseph]

During this conversation this coin has been removed from the NGC registry( competitive sets) with no explanation!

Hello, @Franz Joseph.

We have removed the registry slot. All grading questions need to go to service@NGCcoin.com. Thank you.

[Franz Joseph]

Interesting fact is that copper,brass and other composition coins can be distinguished between 3 colors,RED,BROWN AND REDBROWN( R,BR,RB).

This is contrary to their explanation that no longer attribute coins based on color !?

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:53 AM, Franz Joseph said:

During this conversation this coin has been removed from the NGC registry( competitive sets) with no explanation!

It was removed because you essentially asked for it to be removed and called it a "fake registry line". They already told you that they do not differentiate between the two and since there are no "Red" examples graded by NGC it's an easy decision for them to make, *POOF*, your request was granted.

You know what the coin is and any serious collector of these will know what the coin is, don't get hung up on the little piece of paper. You can create a custom registry set or include images in the regular registry of both varieties in the 1882 slot with a nice written description of the difference between the two. I normally do the latter with varieties that NGC does not recognize. 

[Franz Joseph]

I called it fake with a ? not !

I want an answer that is all!

 

[RWB]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:21 AM, Franz Joseph said:

Interesting fact is that copper,brass and other composition coins can be distinguished between 3 colors,RED,BROWN AND REDBROWN( R,BR,RB).

This is contrary to their explanation that no longer attribute coins based on color !?

 

Verbal descriptions such as 'red' or 'yellow' are neither accurate nor reliable. Also, men and women discriminate colors differently. Coin color can be objectively measured without resorting to XRF. (Back in the 1942 the US Bureau of Standards was using the Munsell color system to describe the colors of plastic experimental cents for the US Mint's research.)

[Franz Joseph]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:16 PM, RWB said:

Verbal descriptions such as 'red' or 'yellow' are neither accurate nor reliable. Also, men and women discriminate colors differently. Coin color can be objectively measured without resorting to XRF. (Back in the 1942 the US Bureau of Standards was using the Munsell color system to describe the colors of plastic experimental cents for the US Mint's research.)

Normal person see red as red and yellow as yellow ! Otherwise there is something wrong with your eyes! If the coin is in all catalogues described as red and given a special reference number than is probably red as red is! 

NGC as a company working for numismatist should be able to grade every legit coin!  Especially those listed in worldwide recognized catalogues such as KM !

[VKurtB]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:32 AM, Franz Joseph said:

NGC as a company working for numismatist should be able to grade every legit coin!  Especially those listed in worldwide recognized catalogues such as KM !

This will never be the case. NGC offers a guarantee. They cannot be forced to guarantee that which they feel they cannot.

[RWB]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:32 AM, Franz Joseph said:

Normal person see red as red and yellow as yellow !

Nope. Individual vision is inconsistent and must never be used to make an assessment of absolute color value. We can say "It looks red" but not "It is red."  Ever work in an office with fluorescent lighting where things look normal, then go outside at night and notice the office lights look green?

"Authentication companies" are not pubic utilities. They can pick what they want to "grade" or omit.

[RWB]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:32 AM, Franz Joseph said:

If the coin is in all catalogues described as red and given a special reference number than is probably red as red is! 

Wrong again. That merely means it "looks red" to someone and the reference was copied. While many might agree it "looks red" (as in the pair posted earlier where one has a "reddish cast") that is not an objective determination. Lots of numismatics is screwed up by such casual and opinionated observations.

Edited December 21, 2023 by RWB

[Sandon]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:21 AM, Franz Joseph said:

copper, brass and other composition coins can be distinguished between 3 colors, RED, BROWN AND RED [&] BROWN ( R,BR,RB).

    This color designation is part of the grade of copper and certain copper alloy coins and is based upon their appearance, not their composition. The "Red Gold" designation you want would have to be based on the determination of the specific alloy used, which is part of the identifying description of the issue of the coin itself, not its grade.

[zadok]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:46 PM, Sandon said:

    This color designation is part of the grade of copper and certain copper alloy coins and is based upon their appearance, not their composition. The "Red Gold" designation you want would have to be based on the determination of the specific alloy used, which is part of the identifying description of the issue of the coin itself, not its grade.

...amen!!!...i hate to even broach this example for fear of the ensuing vocabulary tsunami, but a very similar situation exists between the original n the restrikes of the french 20fr from the french 3rd republic as far as alloy content n color of the gold, fortunately the edge lettering differs n determination is not based solely on the color of the gold....

[Franz Joseph]

I hope you people distinguish between red and green when driving! 

Once again -red is red and yellow is yellow or there is no colour at all?

Perhaps this can help to someone- Colours | LearnEnglish Kids (britishcouncil.org)

 

[RWB]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:43 AM, Franz Joseph said:

I hope you people distinguish between red and green when driving! 

Once again -red is red and yellow is yellow or there is no colour at all?

Perhaps this can help to someone- Colours | LearnEnglish Kids (britishcouncil.org)

 

Sorry, Franz. But your ignorance is showing. Please pull up your trousers.

Now, where are "red" and "yellow" in the RGB/CMYK color wheel shown below?

[RWB]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:46 PM, Sandon said:

This color designation is part of the grade of copper and certain copper alloy coins and is based upon their appearance, not their composition. The "Red Gold" designation you want would have to be based on the determination of the specific alloy used, which is part of the identifying description of the issue of the coin itself, not its grade.

It's not even that easy....The colors mentioned in copper coin grades could be easily given empirical standards -- so too could "proof-like" and several other opinions. It merely requires using objective and consistent measurements of specimens, and one-time human assignment of specific colors.

The color of gold, as I mentioned earlier, was also affected by the fuel used in annealing and even the temperature, so alloy is not the sole determinant.

The entire situation is easily corrected by dropping the "looks like" bias, and preparing openly and objectively defined standards.

Edited December 22, 2023 by RWB

[Franz Joseph]

I can point red colour where it is. Every day,every night. Some people obviesly can not.

 

[Franz Joseph]

If you are a dog than this could be usefull -

What does a dogs vision look like?

 

 

Dogs can see color, but only in shades of blue and yellow. Because dogs can only see two colors, they have dichromatic vision. They can also see shades of gray. Colors such as red, orange, and green are out of a dog's color spectrum, so these colors are not visible to dogs.

[VKurtB]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:33 PM, Franz Joseph said:

If you are a dog than this could be usefull -

What does a dogs vision look like?

 

 

Dogs can see color, but only in shades of blue and yellow. Because dogs can only see two colors, they have dichromatic vision. They can also see shades of gray. Colors such as red, orange, and green are out of a dog's color spectrum, so these colors are not visible to dogs.

Quite many humans ALSO have badly impaired color vision. And lighting does matter. Fluorescent lights are notoriously horrible at rendering color.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:48 PM, zadok said:

...amen!!!...i hate to even broach this example for fear of the ensuing vocabulary tsunami, but a very similar situation exists between the original n the restrikes of the french 20fr from the french 3rd republic as far as alloy content n color of the gold, fortunately the edge lettering differs n determination is not based solely on the color of the gold....

[Vocabulary tsunami!  You have nothing to fear. I merely wanted to point out that all sources, including the "French Red Book" insist the Restrikes are distinguishable from the Originals by their redder color.  However, I have plenty of high-grade examples which suggest there are many exceptions to the contrary.  Problem is, the entire F20F GR line is comprised of an identical 90% gold/10% copper alloy.]