How about a little help JamminJ?

[satootoko]

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This 1786 silver 15 kreuzer(?) has me stumped!

 

The bust on the obverse is completely worn away, but the legend tells us that it is Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II of Austria-Hungary: “IOSEPH * II * D * G * R * I * S * A GERM * HV * BO * REX” (Joseph II, by the grace of God Roman Emperor Always August King of Germany, Hungary & Bohemia.)

 

There is a “B” beneath the bust, which Krause attributes to Kermnica/Kremnitz, Hungary, for Austrian and Hungarian coins and to Breslau for Prussian or Silesian German State coins of this one’s date.

 

The only things on the reverse I am sure of are the date, denomination, and that Joe is Archduke of Austria. My European history knowledge isn’t strong enough to decipher the rest of the legend: “LOTH * M * D * HET * 1786 +* ARCH * AVST * D * BURG * The + stands for a symbol that is very worn, possibly four leaves in the shape of an “X”, which may be a privy mark.

 

The arms on the breast of the two-headed eagle are a shield which doesn’t match anything shown in Krause’s German States Instant Identifier. It's in a 3x3 layout:

• Top and bottom left are vertical lines
• The left center is completely worn smooth
• Top and bottom center have diagonal lines from top left to bottom right
• Details aren't visible on the rest of the sections.

 

It’s in medal alignment.

 

Considering the amount of wear, a weight of 6.3g,, a diameter of 28.5mm, and a silvery “ring” match up very well with the typical 6.4g .563 silver 15 kreuzer/krajczar of the times, but under the damage scratches at the bottom of the reverse the amount “15" is clear. Austrian KM#2025, and most of the other similar coins I have located in Krause have the amount as “XV”. I haven’t found the denomination after the 1750s in any of the appropriate countries I’ve checked, and I’ve checked every one I can think of.

[JamminJ]

Here's what the legends mean:

 

LOTH = Lotharingia [the Lower Lorraine] (today parts of Belgium, the Netherlands & Luxembourg)

ARCH * AVST = Archduke of Austria

D * BURG = Duke of Burgundy

The little "x" is a very small version of the coat of arms of the Austrian Netherlands.

M D = Duke of Milan (Tuscany)

HET = Kingdom of Jeruselem

 

In addition to Holy Roman Emperor, here are Jospeh's other titles:

 

King of Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia & Lodomeria, Jerusalem, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy, Lorraine, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Grand Duke of Tuscany, Grand Prince of Transylvania, Margrave of Moravia, Duke of Brabant, Limburg, Luxembourg, Gelderland, Württemberg, the Upper & Lower Silesia, Milan, Mantua, Parma, Piacenza, Guastalla, Calabria, Bar, Montferrat, Teschen, Auschwitz, Zator, Prince of Swabia, Charleville, Princely Count of Habsburg, Flanders, Tyrol, Hennegau, Kyburg, Goritia, Gradiska; Margrave of the Holy Roman Empire, of Burgau, the Upper and Lower Lusatia, Pont-à-Mousson, Nomeny; Count of Namur, Provence, Vaudémont, Blâmont, Zütphen, Saarwerden, Salm, Falkenstein; Lord of the Wendish Mark, Mechelen

 

Usually the legends will always list the most important titles "RISA" "G H B REX" and "D BURG". The other stuff in teh legend often give a clue as to where the coin was struck.

 

Coins with the emperor's portrait on the front and the eagle on the back are always from the Hapsburg hereditary lands. As you can tell from the list above this is only somewhat helpful. Imperial free cities also struck coins in teh name of the emperor bit they were designed with either the eagle or emperor on once side and the city arms on the other. That's why you can't find it in the German state identifier.

 

From the legends, my guess is your coin was struck either in or about the Austrian Netherlands or the Italian posessions. You can sometimes tell the mint from the arms on the eagle's breast there is a list on page 26 of the 18th century Krause. If you can't find it there also look under: Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Translyvania, Hungary, Italian States and French states.

 

As for why it resembles a much earlier coin, beats me. Is it very thing and non flat like a potato chip?

 

Any chance you can post a picture, perhaps with a detail of the coat of arms?

[truthteller]

Does your coin look like this?

 

 

http://www.abccoinsandtokens.com/Austria.KM.2069.html

 

 

Your coin may also be Austrian Netherlands. 1786 is a tough year for 15 kreuzers. I did a bit of research and weeded out the dates and description to Aust. Netherlands. However, if you coin appears like the 20 kreuzer, then it might be Austria, just not located in the 15 kreuzer section of Krause.

 

 

TRUTH

[satootoko]

Thanks you both.

 

I haven't figured out how to get a picture from my computer to this forum, but I have posted some here, including a closeup of what remains of the coat of arms.

 

It seems to be normal thickness for a well worn coin, and doesn't have any ripples.

 

Except for the denomination and the much greater wear on mine, it looks just like that one Truthteller showed. I wonder why the 15 kreuzer listings stop in the '50s.

[truthteller]

Sometimes Krause fails to list all denominations for a particular country. This is especially true with early Spain circa 1700-1750. Often times they list a particular series, then stop at a certain date. Why? Always good to have backup resources, such as Davenport, to help with identification.

 

 

TRUTH

[JamminJ]

I think its a 20 kreuzer coin. The original weight for these was 6.68 grams but considering the wear on yours 6.3 sounds about right. Note the coinage basis switched in the early 1750s so you can't compare to stuff before that.

 

If I'm right the KM number is 2069 with a valuie of ($4, $6, $8) in (VG, F, VF). Mintage 4.7M at kremnitz, Hungary. Note Krause has the "varieties exist" weasel words in the description.

 

All of these coins with the similar design, bust inside a wreath obverse and eagle on denomination reverse, are much tougher in high grade than the catalog would indicate. I have but a single example in my collection, a Maria Theresa 20k in an MS62 holder with adjustment marks.

[truthteller]

Satootoko's image is clearly of a 15 kreuzer, with the 15 visable under the scratches. It's time for the real expert, Karl Stephens.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[JamminJ]

Sure doesn't look like a 15 to me.

 

Karl would say something like "Why are you collecting damaged junk like that?"

[1jester]

Satoo's coin does appear to me to have 15 stamped into it and not 20. So it's a 15 kreuzer. But that doesn't explain the weight problem.

 

Incidentally, I have a double ducat from 1764, minted in Kremnitz, and instead of the normal 7.0 grams, it weighs 8.0 grams. Strange indeed and I haven't found a satisfactory explanation for it yet.

 

Time to send it in to NGC?