Odd Die Gouges/Markings 1 1

[Fenntucky Mike]

There are what appear to be die gouges all over these two pieces, it's almost like someone was tracing or laying out the design on the coin. I'm wondering if anyone has seen something similar on other coins and if it is indicative of something like an unfinished die, graffiti, counterfeit, etc.? Gouges are noticeable on the Angel's face, right wing, left torso, waist, left leg, Dragon's left wing, around the inner portion of the chain, etc... The two pieces below were presumably produced from the same die. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[Fenntucky Mike]

Here is another from a different year with similar "tool" marks on it. At this point I'm going to chalk this up to poor quality control/craftsmanship. 

[zadok]

On 12/3/2023 at 11:45 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Here is another from a different year with similar "tool" marks on it. At this point I'm going to chalk this up to poor quality control/craftsmanship. 

...i think u r correct, appears to be in die finishing n lack of qc....

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:34 PM, zadok said:

...i think u r correct, appears to be in die finishing n lack of qc....

They probably didn't care as these are just bullion pieces but still I'm a little surprised by this level of ineptitude, even for Pobjoy. I've handled many of these and no others have shown this lack of quality and finish. The first two pieces are from 1985 and are from an unlisted die variety, the third is from 2014. I may need to borrow a pallet. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[zadok]

On 12/3/2023 at 2:06 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

They probably didn't care as these are just bullion pieces but still I'm a little surprised by this level of ineptitude, even for Pobjoy. I've handled many of these and no others have shown this lack of quality and finish. The first two pieces are from 1985 and are from an unlisted die variety, the third is from 2014. I may need to borrow a pallet. 

...birch or oak?....

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/3/2023 at 2:11 PM, zadok said:

...birch or oak?....

Oak. Stronger and will burn better when the heat and lights go out due to lack of wind and sun. 

[RWB]

The 2014 looks ok, but the other has a goofy portrait and noticeably inferior detail.

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/3/2023 at 2:50 PM, RWB said:

The 2014 looks ok, but the other has a goofy portrait and noticeably inferior detail.

Haven't ruled out counterfeit. The tool marks on the 2014 are more inline with the design details, where the tool marks on the 1985 go across details and don't flow with the design nearly as much. I've seen this same design on another 1985 1/10 angel but with ANA privy mark, that one didn't seem to have tooling marks but that's based on an image, and not a very good one. I thought that one was counterfeit until I saw these. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

I went back over my collection of these and I found another example of that design used for the 1986 circulation strikes, the other examples posted have been designated proofs, not that I agree with that, I don't, and I hadn't looked at the BU pieces. I think the '85's are good just sloppy workmanship. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[Zebo]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:33 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I went back over my collection of these and I found another example of that design used for the 1986 circulation strikes, the other examples posted have been designated proofs, not that I agree with that, I don't, and I hadn't looked at the BU pieces. I think the '85's are good just sloppy workmanship. 

You are making my eyes hurt! I checked a 1999 1/20 and it had the same marks.  

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/3/2023 at 4:27 PM, Zebo said:

You are making my eyes hurt! I checked a 1999 1/20 and it had the same marks.  

Interesting, it's a little odd that some pieces will show these tool marks and others don't. Strange that low mintage pieces would have such variance. I was a bit thrown off with the tool marks on the two pieces in the OP as they didn't make sense to me as a lifelong tradesman, machine builder and woodworker. I don't know the intricacies of engraving but a tool mark that is continuous over devices and fields, and that did not follow the contours of the design made no sense to me, especially if you gave a rat's arse about the final product. Sometimes I just need to talk things out with others for it to sink in. Good ol' Pobjoy, 

I'll be looking for a good book on engraving and die making next, just picked up the Maklouf biography and I think that will be my next read.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike