Admission Fees At Coin Shows 2 2

[VKurtB]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:27 AM, Zebo said:

So where in your mind would you believe alternative show locations might be possible to avoid tax and union issues? For ANA, Whitman or other large show? 
 

There are presently 19 states on the "no way in heck" list, most of them "blue states", but not all. Maryland is just strange. No sales tax if the transaction is >$1,000.

Edited November 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Ahh, but it WAS necessary at Nashville. Given the costs, there was NO WAY ON EARTH the IMEX show would not bleed red ink without an admission charge. It's GOING TO BE THE NEW NORMAL. ANA has done it for well over a decade. And NYINC has been $20 a pop forever.

I'd pay $20 for the NYINC because I've never been there and it's one of the few that has a decent chance of having something I want to buy for my primary collection.  I've paid admission to the ANA multiple times too.

I'm not paying a dime to attend a "no name" show.  I get that the economics might or don't work without it but that doesn't make any difference to me.  But then, I don't go to these shows anyway.

I see it as we discussed before.  The show circuit is a social event for you and a low minority of the collector base.  A larger number turn it into a vacation.  Entrance fees don't make any difference here.

I'm a utilitarian.  My coin budget is for buying coins, not a vacation to a location I'd never go otherwise and not for travel expenses to get there.

[World Colonial]

On 11/1/2023 at 1:03 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Silver and Gold price discussions and Silver vs. Gold and the types of coins to get exposure to both are something that should be a staple at these shows.  Also, primers on MSDs and DEs.  I think that would stimulate the public and get more of them to stick with the hobby.

This has nothing to do with actual collecting.

It's financial widget buying.

[World Colonial]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:21 PM, VKurtB said:

At COINEX 2023 in London’s Mayfair section, the show had about 30 dealers. It ALSO had an entry fee of £20 that did cover both days. The exchange rate for £20 is $24.39 US. Two day show. 30 dealers, most of whom were quite upscale. Free is on the way out. The Internet meme that everything has to be free is going to destroy this hobby.

If I am correct that the typical US hobbyist collector's budget is somewhere in the vicinity of $500/YR, I can see that most of them won't pay to attend local shows.

It's presumably different for the example in this post or roughly equivalent higher end shows in population centers with a high concentration of affluent collectors.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/3/2023 at 12:20 PM, Just Bob said:

If that is the definition of numismatist, I fear we have set the bar way too low.

I have a fairly extensive, well-rounded numismatic book collection, which I read and consult frequently. I also do a good bit of reading online, as well as watching videos of lectures and  presentations. I'm on the couch every night with my laptop and pen & notepad, making notes and recording auction results of the tokens that I collect, and other coins that I am interested in. However, in no way do I consider myself a true numismatist. I am just a guy who likes coins and tokens. 

If you spend that much time and effort into doing research and following stuff, I think that makes you a numismatist. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/5/2023 at 1:48 PM, World Colonial said:

If I am correct that the typical US hobbyist collector's budget is somewhere in the vicinity of $500/YR, I can see that most of them won't pay to attend local shows.  It's presumably different for the example in this post or roughly equivalent higher end shows in population centers with a high concentration of affluent collectors.

Sure, most of us here spend more than that and if we don't we still maintain heightened interest in the sector which makes us more likely to fork it over. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:34 PM, World Colonial said:

I'd pay $20 for the NYINC because I've never been there and it's one of the few that has a decent chance of having something I want to buy for my primary collection.  I've paid admission to the ANA multiple times too.

I'm not paying a dime to attend a "no name" show.  I get that the economics might or don't work without it but that doesn't make any difference to me.  But then, I don't go to these shows anyway.

I see it as we discussed before.  The show circuit is a social event for you and a low minority of the collector base.  A larger number turn it into a vacation.  Entrance fees don't make any difference here.

I'm a utilitarian.  My coin budget is for buying coins, not a vacation to a location I'd never go otherwise and not for travel expenses to get there.

But this show was roughly equal to the ANA March show in size. I believe that the naming of it as "International" was more aspiration than actual result. It was not particularly International from my limited look at the bourse.

[VKurtB]

On 11/5/2023 at 4:21 PM, VKurtB said:

My coin budget is for buying coins, not a vacation to a location I'd never go otherwise and not for travel expenses to get there.

And mine is PRECISELY the opposite. I don't go to shows to buy coins, although I VERY occasionally do. That's what public auctions are for.

Edited November 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:19 PM, Coinbuf said:

It would seem from all Kurt has admitted that this endeavor was designed to gouge the public and laugh all the way to the bank.   What is laughable is that Kurt had the gall to suggest that the entry fee was "necessary".

"Necessary" in the pre-show budgeted expectations, absolutely yes. Without a $10 entry fee, there was utterly no shot at the show NOT losing money, even though about 80 people actually bought $150 Early Bird passes. Not everybody is so penny pinching with their collecting endeavors. Those people were also paying $400+ for hotel nights and $75+ a person for dinners in local eateries. My car was parked free in the southern suburbs for three nights, then in downtown Nashville for 22 hours from Friday night to Saturday pre-vening. That cost me $80.99 for an unprotected surface lot two blocks from the Music City Center. (Brand new 2023 $70,000 SUV.) Bottom line: Yes, this was THE MOST EXPENSIVE TO ATTEND COIN SHOW I EVER SAW. It simply cannot do that again in 2024.

When I used to drive to NYINC, before I took Amtrak, I used to park in Weehawken, NJ for $20 a day, and take the free bus to the Waldorf that comes with the Port Imperial Ferry ticket.

Edited November 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

So what explains the decisions that were made? I have my own theory. Adkins and Ellsworth are people who think they're smarter than everybody they know. They've been planning this for over three years. What else was three years ago? Ellsworth's COVID affected term as ANA President. He has obviously thought he knows better than anyone else how to run a coin show since then, and darn it, he finally got to run one his way. This was EXACTLY the way Gary and Steve wanted it. This was their vision, their baby. I haven't heard, but I'd be AMAZED if they don't think their critics are wrong to crazy.

Edited November 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 11/5/2023 at 5:21 PM, VKurtB said:

But this show was roughly equal to the ANA March show in size. I believe that the naming of it as "International" was more aspiration than actual result. It was not particularly International from my limited look at the bourse.

...it was specifically promoted as being "international" when known that it wasnt...not a positive....

[VKurtB]

On 11/6/2023 at 8:04 AM, zadok said:

...it was specifically promoted as being "international" when known that it wasnt...not a positive....

The name of the show was chosen literally YEARS before the first invitation to a dealer went out. The original plan was to even have world mints there. That fell flat.

[zadok]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:47 AM, VKurtB said:

The name of the show was chosen literally YEARS before the first invitation to a dealer went out. The original plan was to even have world mints there. That fell flat.

...yes i am aware but also talked to Steve bout 5 months ago specifically bout that n it was still being promoted...oh well....

[Henri Charriere]

I don't care what the results of the in-house polls are.  It costs $20. to cross the Verrazzano in a car, over 30 bucks to simply take in the view at the top of the ESB and well over $100 to cross the GWB in a semi. A saw buck is chicken feed in comparison. And I haven't even gotten to some of the better-known churches and museums.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Die-polishing

[VKurtB]

On 11/6/2023 at 1:05 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I don't care what the results of the in-house polls are.  It costs $20. to cross the Verrazzano in a car, over 30 bucks to simply take in the view at the top of the ESB and well over $100 to cross the GWB in a semi. A saw buck is chicken feed in comparison. And I haven't even gotten to some of the better-known churches and museums.

Having just gotten back from Paris and the British Isles, let me assure you that NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, numismatic or otherwise, is EVER free. Everything has an entrance fee: museums, mints, coin shows, ALL OF IT. Even the smaller Bloomsbury coin show has an entry fee. This is the only place I've ever been where people want to be lied to and made to believe that ANYTHING is free. You ALWAYS pay for it somewhere. You just prefer being lied to. It's the United States of America's unofficial national sport. Americans LOVE to be lied to. They can't get enough of it.

[VKurtB]

On 11/6/2023 at 12:48 PM, zadok said:

...yes i am aware but also talked to Steve bout 5 months ago specifically bout that n it was still being promoted...oh well....

If Steve really thought that, and I'm not disputing he did; he also had to be believing in magic fairy dust. He obviously either believed it would happen due to his own natural attractiveness, or he thought Gary would pull a rabbit out of his butt.

[zadok]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:00 PM, VKurtB said:

If Steve really thought that, and I'm not disputing he did; he also had to be believing in magic fairy dust. He obviously either believed it would happen due to his own natural attractiveness, or he thought Gary would pull a rabbit out of his butt.

...would that be something like a harey bum trick?....

[ldhair]

There was a show in my area that had a fun idea. There was not a fee but you could buy a ticket for $5 for a chance at a door prize. The ticket had a box you could check to be added to the mailing list. Most did not want to be on any type of list. They saw it as a security risk. I chose to not be on the list. 

The show raised a nice amount that helped pay for the hall.

[VKurtB]

On 11/7/2023 at 6:10 AM, ldhair said:

There was a show in my area that had a fun idea. There was not a fee but you could buy a ticket for $5 for a chance at a door prize. The ticket had a box you could check to be added to the mailing list. Most did not want to be on any type of list. They saw it as a security risk. I chose to not be on the list. 

The show raised a nice amount that helped pay for the hall.

BECAUSE of "security" (the show's, which was PARAMOUNT to the owners {you should have seen the nasty tactical shotgun at the registration table} BOOM!), EVERYBODY had to fill out a registration form, and their photo ID's were checked for a name and face match. Some leeway was given for address mismatches. Ever procrastinate on getting your address updated? Every registration got a $10 door prize raffle ticket, and those who brought the postcard that was mailed out to collectors got a PCGS Sample Slab with a special label for the show and a Tennessee state quarter was the coin. There was a dealer paying ABOVE your $10 fee for those slabs. So if you had your poop grouped, not only did you NOT have to be out $10, you could actually turn a profit.

Trust me; EV-ER-Y-BO-DY who attended IMEX is on a mailing list now.

Edited November 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[Zebo]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:00 PM, VKurtB said:

If Steve really thought that, and I'm not disputing he did; he also had to be believing in magic fairy dust. He obviously either believed it would happen due to his own natural attractiveness, or he thought Gary would pull a rabbit out of his butt.

I talked to a dozen international dealers who didn’t show the remote inkling they wanted or even thought about attending. These are the ones that routinely travel to New York and California.

[VKurtB]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:17 PM, Zebo said:

I talked to a dozen international dealers who didn’t show the remote inkling they wanted or even thought about attending. These are the ones that routinely travel to New York and California.

What was the product years ago that used the line, “either you love it, or you don’t”? Was it Slim Jim’s?  Well, Steve is a little like that. There are people, mostly other dealers, who love him to death, and then there are others who can’t stand him. My wife is in that latter category. Me? I could live without the constant military stories, but I think the region is ripe for a nice coin show. Maybe it still is. I shoved down my personal views to help a show. Driving 11 hours to every big show gets old. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:58 PM, VKurtB said:

....You just prefer being lied to. It's the United States of America's unofficial national sport. Americans LOVE to be lied to. They can't get enough of it.

As a strategic liar, I would not want to see you impugn the character, reputation and good names of the other 20 million people of my state.  We, in New York City, do not lie, per se.  We employ terminological inexactitudes, misspeak, have trouble refreshing our recollections, or simply do not recall when it serves our purpose, but no more grievously than the USG or DoD. Regrettably, I cannot say the same for California. Now, while you may defy categorization or characterization due to your mercurial temperament, I believe it fair to say, judging in part to your considerable number of followers, that you can be trusted implicitly.  I know I do.

[VKurtB]

On 11/7/2023 at 8:25 PM, Henri Charriere said:

As a strategic liar, I would not want to see you impugn the character, reputation and good names of the other 20 million people of my state.  We, in New York City, do not lie, per se.  We employ terminological inexactitudes, misspeak, have trouble refreshing our recollections, or simply do not recall when it serves our purpose, but no more grievously than the USG or DoD. Regrettably, I cannot say the same for California. Now, while you may defy categorization or characterization due to your mercurial temperament, I believe it fair to say, judging in part to your considerable number of followers, that you can be trusted implicitly.  I know I do.

New York more than most places has a psychotic NEED to be constantly lied to. The evidence is omnipresent.

Edited November 8, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:33 PM, VKurtB said:

New York more than most places has a psychotic NEED to be constantly lied to. The evidence is omnipresent.

...as evidenced by the individuals they adopt n then elect to represent them as if they actually believe its in their best interests...new state motto "feed me some more of what i want to hear"...i know for one i will never attend any more coin shows anywhere in that state let alone the big apple, in fact i dont even go there for auctions anymore....

[zadok]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:15 PM, VKurtB said:

What was the product years ago that used the line, “either you love it, or you don’t”? Was it Slim Jim’s?  Well, Steve is a little like that. There are people, mostly other dealers, who love him to death, and then there are others who can’t stand him. My wife is in that latter category. Me? I could live without the constant military stories, but I think the region is ripe for a nice coin show. Maybe it still is. I shoved down my personal views to help a show. Driving 11 hours to every big show gets old. 

...operative words "ripe" n "nice"...Steve's big pitch to me was the area is just begging for a top level show, there r so many collectors there starving for a top level show???...a nice show? anything but, collectors were not to be found...virtually all of the principal foreign dealers both european n domestic told me they would wait n see, im guessing the waiting is over based on what they saw....

[gmarguli]

On 10/31/2023 at 5:09 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Is an admission fee a deal-breaker in regards to attending a show to anyone here? Is $10 too much?

It's not the dollar amount, it's the principal. Why are you charging people money who are coming to a place to buy stuff? 

Would we accept a door fee for anything else? Oh you want to come to the market to buy bananas and eggs, first pay the $10 door fee and then you can enter...

It's a turnoff and shows are antiquated to begin with. Entry fees will just kill them faster.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/11/2023 at 6:11 PM, gmarguli said:

Would we accept a door fee for anything else?....

To my knowledge, COSTCO charges a $60. membership fee.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/11/2023 at 6:11 PM, gmarguli said:

It's a turnoff and shows are antiquated to begin with. Entry fees will just kill them faster.

I cannot wait to see what @VKurtB has to say about this. Was not he the same gentleman who opined those who complained about parking fees at coin shows ought to keep things in "perspective."? 🤣

[Coinbuf]

On 11/6/2023 at 12:05 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I don't care what the results of the in-house polls are.  It costs $20. to cross the Verrazzano in a car, over 30 bucks to simply take in the view at the top of the ESB and well over $100 to cross the GWB in a semi. A saw buck is chicken feed in comparison. And I haven't even gotten to some of the better-known churches and museums.

Apples and oranges, you are trying to compare tourist trap destinations or toll roads to a coin show, not the same not even close.   And while it has been many years since I was in DC it cost me and my wife nothing to go into the Smithsonian and view all the coins on display there, maybe if you got out of the tax and charge me to death big apple you might see a completely new world.

[Henri Charriere]

Bottom line:  those who object to an admission fee outvote those who don't, two to one.  Since I do not attend coin shows and it appears highly unlikely I ever will, I will yield to Messrs. @VKurtB and @zadok and let them do all the thinking and talking around here for me.  They have a better grasp of the subject matter at hand.