Admission Fees At Coin Shows 2 2

[Fenntucky Mike]

I've read multiple people complain about the $10 entry fee at IMEX and I can't help but wonder what's the big deal. A mere $10 seems like a reasonable cover charge for admission to an event that you want to attend, I wouldn't think twice about it, and I've paid more to get into lesser events. 

Is an admission fee a deal-breaker in regards to attending a show to anyone here? Is $10 too much?

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/31/2023 at 8:09 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Is an admission fee a deal-breaker in regards to attending a show to anyone here? Is $10 too much?

No need to embarrass anyone with this. Nobody is going to stick his neck out. On something like this all you've got to do is say, "lemme get Q,... I mean Henri, on the horn."  🤣

I have never been to a show and don't know if I'll ever be able to -- that's up to the Boss, but let's say she relents, and says, Ok!"

I had every intention of going to the NYINC extravaganza last year and the price of admission was twice as much as IMEX. So why didn't I? Because my wife would insist on my being cuffed to her? Nope. Because our globe-trotting camera man might get a shot of me? Nope. Because a show is like a candy shop with many delectable morsels? That's a consideration.. The truth is I investigated who would showcase their Ducats and quickly determined there would be NONE exhibiting my line of coins. If you're going to schmooze and kibbitz, in short, network, that alone is worth the price of admission. But if you're looking for your Holy Grail, ancients and post 1914 moderns, this show doesn't cut it for me... I don't smoke or drink, so why bother? (Besides, I have seen the IMEX advertisements. For that amount of money I'd be better off taking the Boss to go see the Dinosaurs in the museum or spend a day at Coney Island, both of which, admittedly, cost an arm and leg more.)  

 

[JT2]

I do not think that i would pay the $10 to attend the show.  around her in Florida the big shows are free.  (FUN)  even the local shows don't charge.  so let me put it into this perspective.  it cost $10 in gas just to get there, $ 12 in tolls round trip,  $15 for parking,  so that is about $50 without even seeing a thing.  i don't think i would want to drop another $10 on top of that. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/31/2023 at 8:09 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I've read multiple people complain about the $10 entry fee at IMEX and I can't help but wonder what's the big deal. A mere $10 seems like a reasonable cover charge for admission to an event that you want to attend, I wouldn't think twice about it, and I've paid more to get into lesser events.  Is an admission fee a deal-breaker in regards to attending a show to anyone here? Is $10 too much?

I agree for a show you spend 1 hour or more at, which would include even small shows I would think.

The problem -- not that $10 will break any of us -- is when you have these really small local shows with 10-20 tables where most of them are baseball cards or other non-coin stuff.  I wouldn't be happy to pay $10 to go through the tables in 2 minutes and head back to my car. 

I'd probably ascertain before I left (because my time and gas is more valuable to me than the $10 admission fee) if the show was worth my time and $$$.  I'd have no problem paying a small fee to the old Westchester Coin Show, the Garden State Parsippany Show, or the Mt. Kisco Westchester Shows.  Ditto FUN or the other big national or regionals.

However, if the big shows are going to take some $$$ from the public in addition to table and advertising fees....have some good panel discussions, book signings, or lectures by folks like Kurt or RWB.....to stimulate discussion and interest in the hobby.  

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:46 AM, Henri Charriere said:

No need to embarrass anyone with this. Nobody is going to stick his neck out. On something like this all you've got to do is say, "lemme get Q,... I mean Henri, on the horn."  🤣

I have never been to a show and don't know if I'll ever be able to -- that's up to the Boss, but let's say she relents, and says, Ok!"

I had every intention of going to the NYINC extravaganza last year and the price of admission was twice as much as IMEX. So why didn't I? Because my wife would insist on my being cuffed to her? Nope. Because our globe-trotting camera man might get a shot of me? Nope. Because a show is like a candy shop with many delectable morsels? That's a consideration.. The truth is I investigated who would showcase their Ducats and quickly determined there would be NONE exhibiting my line of coins. If you're going to schmooze and kibbitz, in short, network, that alone is worth the price of admission. But if you're looking for your Holy Grail, ancients and post 1914 moderns, this show doesn't cut it for me... I don't smoke or drink, so why bother? (Besides, I have seen the IMEX advertisements. For that amount of money I'd be better off taking the Boss to go see the Dinosaurs in the museum or spend a day at Coney Island, both of which, admittedly, cost an arm and leg more.)  

Some preshow research was assumed by me and should be done by anyone attending any event. If I felt there would be few pieces I'd be interested in, there were no scheduled numismatic meetings, talks, lectures, etc., or that the cost of traveling and lodging was beyond my means at the time I wouldn't go. 

On 10/31/2023 at 10:20 AM, JT2 said:

I do not think that i would pay the $10 to attend the show.  around her in Florida the big shows are free.  (FUN)  even the local shows don't charge.  so let me put it into this perspective.  it cost $10 in gas just to get there, $ 12 in tolls round trip,  $15 for parking,  so that is about $50 without even seeing a thing.  i don't think i would want to drop another $10 on top of that. 

The admission fee being 20% of what you spend in getting to a show sounds like a lot but $10 to get into an event that you want to attend doesn't. I'm also looking at this from an individual point of view, if I had to pay for a spouse and six kids that's a whole different story. They're staying home! 

On 10/31/2023 at 11:31 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I agree for a show you spend 1 hour or more at, which would include even small shows I would think.

The problem -- not that $10 will break any of us -- is when you have these really small local shows with 10-20 tables where most of them are baseball cards or other non-coin stuff.  I wouldn't be happy to pay $10 to go through the tables in 2 minutes and head back to my car. 

I'd probably ascertain before I left (because my time and gas is more valuable to me than the $10 admission fee) if the show was worth my time and $$$.  I'd have no problem paying a small fee to the old Westchester Coin Show, the Garden State Parsippany Show, or the Mt. Kisco Westchester Shows.  Ditto FUN or the other big national or regionals.

However, if the big shows are going to take some $$$ from the public in addition to table and advertising fees....have some good panel discussions, book signings, or lectures by folks like Kurt or RWB.....to stimulate discussion and interest in the hobby.  

Agreed.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2023 at 11:03 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Some preshow research was assumed by me and should be done by anyone attending any event. If I felt there would be few pieces I'd be interested in, there were no scheduled numismatic meetings, talks, lectures, etc., or that the cost of traveling and lodging was beyond my means at the time I wouldn't go. 

The admission fee being 20% of what you spend in getting to a show sounds like a lot but $10 to get into an event that you want to attend doesn't. I'm also looking at this from an individual point of view, if I had to pay for a spouse and six kids that's a whole different story. They're staying home! 

Agreed.

I was the guy on YOUR right, my left, collecting the $10 and applying the wrist bands.

Edited October 31, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

I went to a couple of local "clunkers" that probably cost me $10-$15 in gas and tolls (when gas was alot cheaper !! ) and 2-3 hours of my time.  That was what sucked more than if I ended up paying $10 to get in, if I had to do that.  If there was such a fee I'd probably either ask the ticket seller how many tables had coins or ask to go in for 30 seconds to see if it was worth it.  Quite frankly, a few weren't.

Going to FUN or a big national or regional...I spend hundreds of dollars just to get there, plus hundreds more to stay in a hotel so my total cost is probably going to be $500 - $1,000 if I stay a few days.  So no, a 1-time pass fee of $50 or a daily fee of $10 or $20 isn't going to be a deal-breaker for me. 

But like I said -- and I realize that the FUN people and others volunteer their time and do a great job -- I'd hope that any new fee like this would be dedicated to having some more speakers and panel discussions on popular topics and coins that appeal to the regular coin collectors as well as the curious public.  And no, I don't object to a few perks for the folks who put on the show either, like making sure they can stay in a local hotel to cut down on commuting to the show, dinners, etc.  They've earned it, AFAIC. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2023 at 11:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I went to a couple of local "clunkers" that probably cost me $10-$15 in gas and tolls (when gas was alot cheaper !! ) and 2-3 hours of my time.  That was what sucked more than if I ended up paying $10 to get in, if I had to do that.  If there was such a fee I'd probably either ask the ticket seller how many tables had coins or ask to go in for 30 seconds to see if it was worth it.  Quite frankly, a few weren't.

Going to FUN or a big national or regional...I spend hundreds of dollars just to get there, plus hundreds more to stay in a hotel so my total cost is probably going to be $500 - $1,000 if I stay a few days.  So no, a 1-time pass fee of $50 or a daily fee of $10 or $20 isn't going to be a deal-breaker for me. 

But like I said -- and I realize that the FUN people and others volunteer their time and do a great job -- I'd hope that any new fee like this would be dedicated to having some more speakers and panel discussions on popular topics and coins that appeal to the regular coin collectors as well as the curious public.  And no, I don't object to a few perks for the folks who put on the show either, like making sure they can stay in a local hotel to cut down on commuting to the show, dinners, etc.  They've earned it, AFAIC. 

The $10 fee DID go to getting Steve Forbes to appear, and some awesome door prizes.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/31/2023 at 12:37 PM, VKurtB said:

The $10 fee DID go to getting Steve Forbes to appear, and some awesome door prizes.

Did Forbes have anything interesting to say ?

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2023 at 11:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did Forbes have anything interesting to say ?

I didn't stay for the Friday night talk, but I got to speak with him privately for almost 10 minutes. I was lavishly formally trained to be a Keynesian economist, but the Forbes brand of monetarism is just removed from Keynesianism by different terminology.

Which causes inflation? Too much "money" chasing too few "goods", or too much "aggregate income" chasing too little "productivity"? That's the difference.

Keynesians insist "people don't spend MONEY, they spend INCOME". "MONEY" is invested, not spent.

Edited October 31, 2023 by VKurtB

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Depends on the show.  I would pay $10 to enter a large show (which ironically are mostly free).  Small shows are fun, but 99% of the time I walk out empty handed.  If there is a "cover" to see 15-20 tables, I am out (unless I know in advance a particular dealer will be there with a coin a like).  

[Coinbuf]

While I voted yes, it is not the fee itself that is the issue here, but just one more fee or cost to what is rapidly becoming a very costly event.   Gas or airfare, food and lodging, (for a larger show) it is all getting more expensive and adding an additional fee to enter the show is somewhat like that last straw.   The $10 is not going to break anyone, but it seems a bit like rubbing salt into a wound, just unnecessary.

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2023 at 12:37 PM, Coinbuf said:

While I voted yes, it is not the fee itself that is the issue here, but just one more fee or cost to what is rapidly becoming a very costly event.   Gas or airfare, food and lodging, (for a larger show) it is all getting more expensive and adding an additional fee to enter the show is somewhat like that last straw.   The $10 is not going to break anyone, but it seems a bit like rubbing salt into a wound, just unnecessary.

Ahh, but it WAS necessary at Nashville. Given the costs, there was NO WAY ON EARTH the IMEX show would not bleed red ink without an admission charge. It's GOING TO BE THE NEW NORMAL. ANA has done it for well over a decade. And NYINC has been $20 a pop forever.

Edited October 31, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:00 PM, VKurtB said:

I didn't stay for the Friday night talk, but I got to speak with him privately for almost 10 minutes. I was lavishly formally trained to be a Keynesian economist, but the Forbes brand of monetarism is just removed from Keynesianism by different terminology.  Which causes inflation? Too much "money" chasing too few "goods", or too much "aggregate income" chasing too little "productivity"? That's the difference. Keynesians insist "people don't spend MONEY, they spend INCOME". "MONEY" is invested, not spent.

Anything interesting to say about the markets or economy, forget inflation.....

I believe they have no more control or ties to the Forbes magazine or media empire.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Ahh, but it WAS necessary at Nashville. Given the costs, there was NO WAY ON EARTH the IMEX show would not bleed red ink without an admission charge. It's GOING TO BE THE NEW NORMAL. ANA has done it for well over a decade. And NYINC has been $20 a pop forever.

I wonder if anybody has considered waiving the fee if you spent a certain amount of $$$ at the show. 

[zadok]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Ahh, but it WAS necessary at Nashville. Given the costs, there was NO WAY ON EARTH the IMEX show would not bleed red ink without an admission charge. It's GOING TO BE THE NEW NORMAL. ANA has done it for well over a decade. And NYINC has been $20 a pop forever.

...i think it bled more than red ink...most likely produced its own epitaph...campers very unhappy....

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2023 at 3:37 PM, zadok said:

...i think it bled more than red ink...most likely produced its own epitaph...campers very unhappy....

Which campers? I heard almost no complaints. It was a March ANA sized show, with higher end dealers. Only FUN and Summer ANA are bigger, and one of those already has the $10 fee. Watch closely. FUN will have to adopt it too; they’ll have to or price booths out of all reason. When COVID hit, all anyone could talk about was how coin shows would die. The truth is they’re doing better than before COVID. The Internet is simply too poor a substitute. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:35 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Depends on the show.  I would pay $10 to enter a large show (which ironically are mostly free).  Small shows are fun, but 99% of the time I walk out empty handed.  If there is a "cover" to see 15-20 tables, I am out (unless I know in advance a particular dealer will be there with a coin a like).  

Also, the small shows are just renting space at a Knights of Columbus or other hall for the most part....low-rent places, no speakers or talks or frills, just tables.  Since the dealers and the "promoter" have already covered their minimal costs with 1 or 2 small sales, they really don't need any entry charge.

Now...a nice hotel for a somewhat larger show with multiple rooms (and maybe a talk or panel discussion) I can live with a small fee.  And something bigger like FUN having all that space at the Orange County Convention Center with all the bells and whistles, not a deal-breaker.  

Again....I'm not sure what the per-table fee is at a big show like FUN (I think about $500/day, is that right ?) but that revenue stream will dwarf a small entry charge to 1,000 or 1,500 attendees or how many attend (no idea for a big show like FUN -- anybody ?).  But I'd really love for any entry fee to go to MORE Big Picture talks or panel discussions and not something specific to expert coin collectors.

Silver and Gold price discussions and Silver vs. Gold and the types of coins to get exposure to both are something that should be a staple at these shows.  Also, primers on MSDs and DEs.  I think that would stimulate the public and get more of them to stick with the hobby.

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Which campers? I heard almost no complaints.

Many seem to be complaining about the registration and entry process, floor layout, the $10's, etc.. Charmy did a nice job of listing issues/concerns in her show report ats. 

I'm in lockstep with her on one of the points, cut dealer day in half and open the show to the public starting on Thursday. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[zadok]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Which campers? I heard almost no complaints. It was a March ANA sized show, with higher end dealers. Only FUN and Summer ANA are bigger, and one of those already has the $10 fee. Watch closely. FUN will have to adopt it too; they’ll have to or price booths out of all reason. When COVID hit, all anyone could talk about was how coin shows would die. The truth is they’re doing better than before COVID. The Internet is simply too poor a substitute. 

...wasnt really addressing the $10 entry fee, of no consequence to me either way...was mainly addressing dissatisfaction of the imex in general...many of dealers i talked to r not coming back as it now stands....

[VKurtB]

1) The registration process was wonky, but for good reason. Dealer registration and security room load up on Wednesday / early Tuesday was stupid because the Music City Center was late providing EVERYTHING. NOTHING was provided on time. We didn’t even have our Registration booths until Friday. I have never before arrived at ANY show venue at which the PREVIOUS show had not been cleaned up yet. That was the case at the Music City Center. 
 

2) Steve is hyper focused on SECURITY. EVERY attendee had to present a photo ID BEFORE they were allowed to register. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:55 PM, VKurtB said:

.... And NYINC has been $20 a pop forever.

NOTE:  Held for review by moderators pending release...

If it came to my attention that just one if not more of the specific Roosters I have been looking for were to be made available at NYINC, I would gladly pay the price of admission knowing full well the sales tax on it would likely be seven times the price of admission... as you wrote in one of your earliest posts -- in that case involving complaints about parking fees -- "let's keep things in perspective, people!"  🤣

[RWB]

What is the "value proposition" for any coin show bourse? Start with defining that for yourself, then you can decide if attending is beneficial. (In my numismatic situation it is very unusual for any coin show bourse to have "value." I simply cannot find anything of meaningful research importance, unless someone is bringing an item specifically for examination (such as the Peace dollar pattern and trial pieces I saw several years ago, well before their discovery was announced).

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2023 at 5:21 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Many seem to be complaining about the registration and entry process, floor layout, the $10's, etc.. Charmy did a nice job of listing issues/concerns in her show report ats. 

I'm in lockstep with her on one of the points, cut dealer day in half and open the show to the public starting on Thursday. 

That would require a complete reversal of the owners’ viewpoint. They pretty much disdain public retail. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2023 at 11:57 AM, RWB said:

What is the "value proposition" for any coin show bourse? Start with defining that for yourself, then you can decide if attending is beneficial. (In my numismatic situation it is very unusual for any coin show bourse to have "value." I simply cannot find anything of meaningful research importance, unless someone is bringing an item specifically for examination (such as the Peace dollar pattern and trial pieces I saw several years ago, well before their discovery was announced).

Agreed, for your use case. I don’t even consider you a true numismatist ANY MORE, much less the one “of the Year.” This should hardly surprise you. My niche is competitive exhibiting, whose written rules REQUIRE that the exhibitor own each and every piece in his or her exhibit. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by VKurtB

[RWB]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:23 PM, VKurtB said:

I don’t even consider you a true numismatist ANY MORE,

Thank you! One day, when you've grown up, you'll understand that coin collectors are numismatists, too.

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2023 at 7:27 PM, RWB said:

Thank you! One day, when you've grown up, you'll understand that coin collectors are numismatists, too.

They ARE, but you are just a dusty archive data compiler. 

[RWB]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:29 PM, VKurtB said:

They ARE, but you are just a dusty archive data compiler. 

That is one, fairly accurate way to describe any research: Look, compare, compile, analyze, theorize, publish for others to become better informed and use results. It is literally dusty, grubby, and filled with unknowns. Let's take a really simple example: A coin collector whats to know more about U.S. coins struck for Puerto Rico. Published information, which had to be located, organized and published by someone, is old and sketchy. Are there originals? Where are they? Check US archives and ask their experts -- a couple of promising listings. Check those -- oops, almost nothing -- files and folders mislabeled. Nothing else shows up.

Hmmmm... What to do? Ask numismatic experts who have hands-on experience. Makes sense -- one would do the same if searching for a specific coin, or fine details about exhibit judging. There are lots of coin experts, and written rules for exhibiting, but only a few - possibly 3 - who might know where Puerto Rico coinage information exists.

This latter part is where research expertise really comes forward. Exploring the unknown, new and unexpected. Finding the lost, forgotten and misplaced pieces of American numismatic history. Opening doors to information for sp[specialists or anyone to use.

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:24 PM, RWB said:

That is one, fairly accurate way to describe any research: Look, compare, compile, analyze, theorize, publish for others to become better informed and use results. It is literally dusty, grubby, and filled with unknowns. Let's take a really simple example: A coin collector whats to know more about U.S. coins struck for Puerto Rico. Published information, which had to be located, organized and published by someone, is old and sketchy. Are there originals? Where are they? Check US archives and ask their experts -- a couple of promising listings. Check those -- oops, almost nothing -- files and folders mislabeled. Nothing else shows up.

Hmmmm... What to do? Ask numismatic experts who have hands-on experience. Makes sense -- one would do the same if searching for a specific coin, or fine details about exhibit judging. There are lots of coin experts, and written rules for exhibiting, but only a few - possibly 3 - who might know where Puerto Rico coinage information exists.

This latter part is where research expertise really comes forward. Exploring the unknown, new and unexpected. Finding the lost, forgotten and misplaced pieces of American numismatic history. Opening doors to information for sp[specialists or anyone to use.

I’ve never doubted your research techniques. But do they a numismatist make? I’m less than convinced. I think the ownership aspect is important to the definition. What you do could equally apply to other “stuff”, like, for example, dishware or munitions. Not numismatics per se, although admittedly related to it. 
 

An aside: does the field of “U.S. coins struck for Puerto Rico” include 2009 five cent pieces? From anecdotal evidence, perhaps it should. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:47 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve never doubted your research techniques. But do they a numismatist make? I’m less than convinced. I think the ownership aspect is important to the definition. What you do could equally apply to other “stuff”, like, for example, dishware or munitions. Not numismatics per se, although admittedly related to it. 
 

An aside: does the field of “U.S. coins struck for Puerto Rico” include 2009 five cent pieces? From anecdotal evidence, perhaps it should. 

...not to worry, the rapidly approaching AI endeavors will soon take over all of the compiling aspects of numismatics, leaving only the true research to be accomplished, the hands on with coins research that isnt filed away in archives....