1830 P Capped Bust Dime, With Unidentified Variety Attributes 1 1

[dprince1138]

I use several sites to identify varieties, but I have come upon a dime that I cannot associate with an existing variety.

Description;
The medium size 10C has wider spacing between the 1 and 0, and between the C and period, which is under the 3rd arrow, at about the center. The period placement seems to match that of a large 10C placement.

Perhaps the medium 10C letters were struck using a large 10C letter layout?

Attached are a medium 10C example, a large 10C example and the dime in question.

Any assistance in where to find additional variety information or information about this seeming variety would be greatly appreciated!

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.

   Have you compared your coin with the photos of the eight different "JR" reference die varieties of 1830 Capped Bust dimes shown on NGC VarietyPlus, seven of which are described as "Medium 10C.", including the two 1830/29 overdate varieties? Early Dimes (1796-1837) | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com) You may also be able to find photos of these varieties on PCGS Coinfacts. https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1830-10c-medium/4516.  These varieties may be described in more detail in Davis et al., Early United States Dimes 1796-1837 (1984) (the "JR" reference), a copy of which may be hard to find.

   Pre-1837 U.S. coins were struck from dies in which each element (devices, letters, numerals, and stars) was punched in separately, so coins produced from each die  or die pair show differences in the positioning of these elements. Every once in a while, a new die variety is discovered, but you should ascertain that your coin does not match any of them (including die states reflecting differences that developed as the dies wore) before considering this possibility.   

   

[EagleRJO]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:26 AM, dprince1138 said:

Any assistance in where to find additional variety information or information about this seeming variety would be greatly appreciated!

NGC VarietyPlus as suggested is a great source for coin varieties. 

On 10/27/2023 at 9:52 AM, Sandon said:

Every once in a while, a new die variety is discovered ...

If it is not matching known varieties it also could be a counterfeit, which is more likely than a new variety.

Edited October 27, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Mike Meenderink]

This may be a counterfeit coin. The denticles are not quite right and the coin seems flat. In hand I could tell you for sure. I'm going with a counterfeit coin. IMO that's why you cant find a match because its a press copy.

[dprince1138]

I have reviewed all of the possible varities listed in NGC coin varities and there are no variations in the 10C positioning nor could I find any other source indicating 10C positioning varieties.. Apparently, there is a book with extensive documentation of capped bust dimes, but is difficult to find and very expensive, if found.

The photo quality is poor.  I had purchased the dime yesterday.

I would need an explicit explaination of why it would be a counterfeit.  Also, I had researched this possibilty, but found no documentation.

Edited October 27, 2023 by dprince1138

[dprince1138]

Also, thank you for your replies!

[Mike Meenderink]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:21 AM, dprince1138 said:

I have reviewed all of the possible varities listed in NGC coin varities and there are no variations in the 10C positioning nor could I find any other source indicating 10C positioning varieties.. Apparently, there is a book with extensive documentation of capped bust dimes, but is difficult to find and very expensive, if found.

The photo quality is poor.  I had purchased the dime yesterday.

I would need an explicit explaination of why it would be a counterfeit.  Also, I had researched this possibilty, but found no documentation.

@Sandon Check this coin out does it seem to be off to you? I'm suspicious. It just doesn't look right. Denticles are weird and the denomination is placed wrong.

[dprince1138]

If you own any counterfeit Bust dimes or other denominations which you believe could be contemporary or if you have any historical documentation on Bust dimes or other Bust denomination please contact me at stonemanl01 gmail com.

I have sent this fellow an email.

 

[dprince1138]

Also, thank you for your replies!

[Sandon]

    Although it is somewhat difficult either to attribute or authenticate this coin due to the blurry photos and the heavy tarnish and/or dirt on the coin, it appears likely to be a genuine JR-6. (I consulted the 2002 Bowers & Merena auction catalog of the collection of Russell J. Logan, one of the authors of the "JR" reference, at p.264, as well as the NGC VarietyPlus photos.)

    The obverse appears to be from the die used for JR-6 and JR-8, whose most distinctive characteristic is that the bottom of the "3" in the date is lower than the other numerals. Most coins struck from this obverse also show some stage of a "die crack through the curls at back of [the] head from the ribbon to lowest curl", although I can't see this in the photos. Logan catalog, notes to description of lot 2101, his JR-6. On the reverse, also used for JR-5, "[t]he period in [the] denomination is weakly visible." Id. The positions of the numerals, letters, and stars also appear to match these respective dies. (Part of the confusion may stem from the first reverse photo in VarietyPlus for the JR-6 appearing to be of a JR-5.)  The second set of photos follows:

 

   The "dentils", more accurately described as "border beads" on an 1829-37 "close collar" strike, appear normal for a coin worn to VF or so condition.    

Edited October 27, 2023 by Sandon
corrected "JR-8" to "JR-5"

[dprince1138]

Thank you, while the spacing between the 1 and 0 seems to be similar, the spacing between the C and period do not seem to be similar.  The period is much further to the right and is in the same position of the period for a large 10C version,

[Sandon]

   Sharper photos of the coin would help.  Moreover, when you draw lines from point to point, draw them on the same angle, preferably perpendicular to the point of beginning, not on different angles as on your initial post.

   From some photos of the reverse used on the JR-5 and JR-6 reverse, it appears that there were actually two dots after the "C", with an even lighter one to the right of the primary one, as on this PCGS Coinfacts photo of a JR-6 graded MS 64. Could the primary period be hiding in the darkness or dirt?

     

[dprince1138]

The line was perpendicular to the arrow side, although, there was some angle deviation.  Also. I drew a line from the C to the dot to indicate spacing.   I looked at the JR series, but I did not see a 2nd dot.

In an attempt to provide more clarity, I drew a line from the dot to the points of the last arrow.

The dot is higher in  relation to the curl of the C and the angle is steeper to the arrow.

As mentioned, the dot seems to be in the same location as the dot for the large 10C

Edited October 27, 2023 by dprince1138

[EagleRJO]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:12 PM, dprince1138 said:

... the spacing between the C and period do not seem to be similar.  The period is much further to the right and is in the same position of the period for a large 10C version.

I agree the dot is not in the correct position for a Medium JR-6.  It either matches a known variety or it doesn't.  Comparing individual things with other types doesn't help, like looking at the dot position for a Large type when it's a Medium type.

On 10/27/2023 at 4:34 PM, Sandon said:

From some photos of the reverse used on the JR-5 and JR-6 reverse, it appears that there were actually two dots after the "C", with an even lighter one to the right of the primary one

That may just be a mark or stain as I dont see the same possible second dot on the PCG$ AU55 or a cleaner MS64 JR-6 from HA here ... https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-dimes/1830-10c-medium-10c-jr-6-r2-ms64-ngc-pcgs-38843-/a/1278-3387.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Edited October 27, 2023 by EagleRJO

[dprince1138]

Thank you for your efforts and for the Heritage link.  I will need to check that site out.  Of course, once I receive the coin I will take clearer photos.  Too bad that the ultimate capped bust dime book is hard to find.

[Sandon]

   You can see the second dot, likely a tiny die chip, if you look at the PCGS photo at its full resolution on Coinfacts. 

  I didn't realize that you hadn't yet had an opportunity to examine the coin in hand. When you do, you should look hard at the area where the period should be. If you still believe it isn't a JR-6 or other listed variety, I recommend comparing the positions of each of the letters in the legend (UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) in relation to the eagle and lettering in the scroll to the JR-6 and, if there is still no match, also the other reverse dies. 

   If you are a member of the American Numismatic Association (money.org), you may be able to borrow a copy of the JR reference from the ANA library. A coin dealer in your area may also have a copy. 

   It is sometimes not possible to definitely attribute these coins due to wear or environmental damage, such as where a raised crust has formed that obscures details, which is possibly the case here.

[dprince1138]

The JR6 die has an extremely small dot.  Upon high magnification, I see what I believe is the dot.  The aforementioned dot appears to be slight dmg/blob

Thank you everyone!

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by dprince1138