Weights of 1873 silver coins with closed 3 versus those with open 3. 1 1

[RWB]

Does anyone happen to have accurate weights for 1873 silver coins with closed 3 vs open 3 in the date, but no arrows?

Weight of dimes, quarters, and halves was raised slightly after March 31, 1873, and arrows placed at the date. (The purpose was to make US subsidiary silver exactly equal to French silver. Two US halves = 1 France 5 francs.) Grain to gram conversion at 2 decimal places:

Dime 2.49 grams to 2.50 grams

Quarter 6.22 grams to 6.25 grams

Half 12.44 grams to 12.50 grams

Edited September 15, 2023 by RWB

[RWB]

Nobody has these in their Red Book margin notes?

[Conder101]

I believe the 3 was changed right around the same time but from a quick look at the Redbook it looks like the Open 3 came before the arrows were added.  If that was true, the closed 3 should all be at the old weight and the open 3 should also be the old weight, and then the open 3 with arrows would be the new weight.

[zadok]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:53 PM, Conder101 said:

I believe the 3 was changed right around the same time but from a quick look at the Redbook it looks like the Open 3 came before the arrows were added.  If that was true, the closed 3 should all be at the old weight and the open 3 should also be the old weight, and then the open 3 with arrows would be the new weight.

...addressing just the half dollars...i believe u r correct on what weight planchets were supposed to be used at the various time frames...obtaining exact weights just mite be elusive since the weights would need to be for unc examples since circ coins could easily vary outside the expressed correct weights...to further compound obtaining said examples, there r vitually no examples in unc floating around for the open 3 coins n virtually all of the unc examples of both 3s r certified making exact measurements problematic...but ill search my junk drawer n see if there r a couple bank rolls of each rolling around in there...nope....

[RWB]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:53 PM, Conder101 said:

I believe the 3 was changed right around the same time but from a quick look at the Redbook it looks like the Open 3 came before the arrows were added.  If that was true, the closed 3 should all be at the old weight and the open 3 should also be the old weight, and then the open 3 with arrows would be the new weight.

That's what I was wondering....but no one seems to have data...and nice coins are mostly in slabs.

[Henri Charriere]

Slabbing makes sense. They're small and valuable enough, but now you've got me thinking do the 1853 halves with rays and arroes weight more? Do the Gobrecht dollars without stars weigh less?...

[bstrauss3]

Legally, the weight should be the old weight until the effective date of the new weight, regardless of design, right? And the arrows are the markers for the changed weight.

 

The closed vs. open 3 is just a minor design item - the best bet would be for somebody who knows how to find things at NARA to come across a letter explaining it. If only we knew such a chap....

[zadok]

On 9/24/2023 at 4:42 PM, bstrauss3 said:

Legally, the weight should be the old weight until the effective date of the new weight, regardless of design, right? And the arrows are the markers for the changed weight.

 

The closed vs. open 3 is just a minor design item - the best bet would be for somebody who knows how to find things at NARA to come across a letter explaining it. If only we knew such a chap....

...the closed three versus the open three weight discrepancy if there is one isnt going be resolved by archive diving its going to take real numismatic research...not a skill thats well represented on this forum....

[RWB]

Arrowheads were added when the new weight became effective - April 1, 1873. So all coins with arrowheads should be the new weights, and all those without, the old, lower weight. I've found nothing, however, that states when the new "open 3" was introduced. That is the question I was hoping to better understand. But no one, on any site seems to have data.

[Sandon]

   This issue may be impossible to resolve, not only because most of the unworn surviving examples of these coins are imprisoned in grading service holders and not available to weigh but also because the legal weight tolerances for each of the coins at the old and new standards for each denomination overlap. 

   Per my 1984 edition Coin World Almanac (p.347), the applicable weight standards and resulting pertinent minimum and maximum weights are as follows:

   Dime: 1853-73 standard 2.488 grams, tolerance 0.032 gram, resulting in legal weights of 2.456 to 2.520 grams.  1873-1964 standard 2.500 grams, tolerance 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 2.403 to 2.597 grams.

   Quarter dollar: 1853-73 standard 6.221 grams, tolerance 0.065 gram, resulting in legal weights of 6.156 to 6.286 grams.  1873-1947 standard 6.250 grams, tolerance of 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 6.153 to 6.347 grams.

   Half dollar: 1853-73 standard 12.441 grams, tolerance 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 12.344 to 12.538 grams.  1873-1947 standard 12.500 grams, tolerance of 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 12.403 to 12.597 grams.

   Presumably, the 1873 dimes, quarters, and half dollars without arrows, whether with "closed" or "open" 3s in the dates were coined before the 1873 legislation took effect and those with arrows at each side of the date, all of which have open 3s, were coined thereafter, the arrows being intended to indicate their issuance under the new standard. However, the mint could legally have used any old standard dime or quarter planchets and any old standard half dollar planchets that weighed at least 12.344 grams to coin the pieces with arrows as well. Even if a meaningful sample of unworn 1873 closed 3, open 3, and with arrows coins could be weighed, the results would likely be ambiguous. 

 

   

   

  

[zadok]

On 9/24/2023 at 7:18 PM, Sandon said:

   This issue may be impossible to resolve, not only because most of the unworn surviving examples of these coins are imprisoned in grading service holders and not available to weigh but also because the legal weight tolerances for each of the coins at the old and new standards for each denomination overlap. 

   Per my 1984 edition Coin World Almanac (p.347), the applicable weight standards and resulting pertinent minimum and maximum weights are as follows:

   Dime: 1853-73 standard 2.488 grams, tolerance 0.032 gram, resulting in legal weights of 2.456 to 2.520 grams.  1873-1964 standard 2.500 grams, tolerance 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 2.403 to 2.597 grams.

   Quarter dollar: 1853-73 standard 6.221 grams, tolerance 0.065 gram, resulting in legal weights of 6.156 to 6.286 grams.  1873-1947 standard 6.250 grams, tolerance of 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 6.153 to 6.347 grams.

   Half dollar: 1853-73 standard 12.441 grams, tolerance 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 12.344 to 12.538 grams.  1873-1947 standard 12.500 grams, tolerance of 0.097 gram, resulting in legal weights of 12.403 to 12.597 grams.

   Presumably, the 1873 dimes, quarters, and half dollars without arrows, whether with "closed" or "open" 3s in the dates were coined before the 1873 legislation took effect and those with arrows at each side of the date, all of which have open 3s, were coined thereafter, the arrows being intended to indicate their issuance under the new standard. However, the mint could legally have used any old standard dime or quarter planchets and any old standard half dollar planchets that weighed at least 12.344 grams to coin the pieces with arrows as well. Even if a meaningful sample of unworn 1873 closed 3, open 3, and with arrows coins could be weighed, the results would likely be ambiguous. 

 

   

   

  

...the obvious answers to this query has been answered before in this thread, ur summary is perhaps more succinct n hopefully provides the required closure...n even if the few unc specimens of both varieties were made available the available pool would be insufficient to formulate a definitive answer....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/24/2023 at 6:36 PM, zadok said:

...the closed three versus the open three weight discrepancy if there is one isnt going be resolved by archive diving its going to take real numismatic research...not a skill thats well represented on this forum....

I have spent the entirety of my life in libraries, law libraries, specialized branches of medical, scientific, engineering ‐- and even branches dedicated to Braille and Patents. I am up to the job and I believe my wife can fend for herself in my absence. When do I start, and where?

[RWB]

On 9/24/2023 at 7:18 PM, Sandon said:

also because the legal weight tolerances for each of the coins at the old and new standards for each denomination overlap. 

This is not so much of a problem if there is an appropriate sample size. The tolerance range will average out, leaving two bins centered on the nominal legal weights. But -- this will not work with just a few coins. (Also, note that new coin and adjustment weights were issued for April 1, 1873, and this combined with the common practice biasing against underweight coins.)

[zadok]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:25 AM, RWB said:

This is not so much of a problem if there is an appropriate sample size. The tolerance range will average out, leaving two bins centered on the nominal legal weights. But -- this will not work with just a few coins. (Also, note that new coin and adjustment weights were issued for April 1, 1873, and this combined with the common practice biasing against underweight coins.)

...there isnt n there wont be....