Interesting post across the street: Modern grade guarantee and consequences

[Zoins]

Jim,

 

To me your post makes sense IF the TPGs put that in their grade guarantee, just like how NGC has documented grade guarantee differences for copper. IMO, the TPGs should be held to their guarantee as written, which they are free to change and perhaps should change?

 

In another thread ATS, it seems that only some ASEs get spots so you can't just expect everyone to think spots will always develop. The other thing that was brought up by a few of people is that they only observed milkspots develop on ASEs in PCGS/NGC slabs, not their ASEs stored in OGP or slips. Could TPG slabs be causing the milkspots?

[jesbroken]

Great point zoins and quite probably why there are 10 pages of posts to this issue. It is not so cut and dried as one might immediately think. I did not know that this only occurred in NGC and PCGS slabs, is this a for sure fact? If it is then I don't know why all of us should be talking, one letter from his attorney should solve this point.

Many good points have been brought up by this forum, which just adds to it's value as a learning tool for everyone. I hope that PCGS reads it(which I feel sure they do as does NGC). They will surely see how important this issue is for them and for us.

I hope that this is resolved in the best interests of both parties.

Good luck

Jim

[Zoins]

Here is the other thread ATS. After my post above, milkspots have also been reported on ASEs stored in AirTites with the inner ring. Could there be some chemical used in the AirTite rings and TPG slab inserts (white for NGC, clear for PCGS) that is the culprit?

[jesbroken]

Zoins

I have several ASE's that I've had for 18 to 20 years in only a non pvc flip(maybe originally in a pvc flip who knows) that have no milk spotting. I believe I may place a 1986 or 1987 ASE in an Airtite holder just to see if it milkspots after 20 years of age. Might be worth the expense to have a test piece. What do you think?

Jim

[Zoins]

I probably wouldn't do it for just one coin since the existing information is anecdotal as well. It might be worthwhile to do a more scientific study, but then you'd need a whole bunch of ASEs with multiples stored each way.

[Houston Investor]

I think this is between the collector and PCGS, eventually they should reach a settlement. I do not believe the collector would be willing to put up the money required to fight this in court. I don't blame PCGS for not wanting to reimburse this guy above retail either. If the "settlement" is at the PCGS price guide price for PR70DC, this collector should take it. No dealer would pay him that even if the coins were not spotted. Whats wrong with just collecting ASE's raw anyhow? Would be a lot cheaper for him.

 

I would not want to be caught in this kinda dispute between a collector and a grading service. For my show sales, all transactions are final. For mail order / internet there is a 7 day return priveledge and no returns accepted after that time.

 

In over 17 years of dealing, I have never had anyone try to return a coin they bought from me at a show and mail order returns have been less than half a percent if that much. I have purchased coins from clients at shows they bought from me say a few years back paying more than what I sold it to them for due to the market. I remember one guy telling me "your offer was higher than the other dealers I shopped it around the room to." This was a beutiful Gem BU 1933-D Oregon Trail Half in PCGS 65. I bought it back from him at CDN Bid. It has subsequently been retailed as it was a beautiful piece with fantastic satiny luster, probably the best of that issue I have ever seen.

[Zoins]

I don't blame PCGS for not wanting to reimburse this guy above retail either. If the "settlement" is at the PCGS price guide price for PR70DC, this collector should take it.

I agree the collector should take the settlement if it was at the PCGS price guide price for PR70DC which is actually MORE than the collector asked for. The problem seems to be that the "PCGS price guide" and "retail" prices can be very different and that PCGS did not want to use the PCGS price guide prices.

 

If you read the thread the Ben Evans, the collector, asks for prices below PCGS price guide prices:

-- May 23rd 2005 -- David Hall returns my phone call personally. Pleasant fellow, we agreed upon all points, and he asked me to send him the value of the coins personally to him by email, dh@collectors.com. I comply and sent the same email that I've sent PCGS before with the same values. A quick note on the values, they are far less than PCGS's guide since we all know that even they think those prices are high. My values are to replace the coins now.

David Hall replies:

His expectations as to what we should pay him seemed to me to be above retail.

Notice that David Hall does not say the prices are above the PCGS price guide. It seems funny that PCGS would publish a price guide and then reference retail prices instead of their own price guide.

 

If Parker's scenario of PCGS making the collector whole using PCGS price guide prices for PR70DCs, then I think the collector would have been more than happy since he asked for less than the price guide. Instead, it seems PCGS wanted to use prices lower than what Ben asked for which was already lower than their own published prices. Not a pleasant situation for either party I'm sure.

[Houston Investor]

It would be interesting to know exactly what the "retail" prices PCGS offered were then.

[James_OldeTowne]

I always thought this was a classic thread.

 

Did anyone ever collect on the $10,000 solution for spots on ASEs?

[e1cnr]

search is your friend - a classic thread

 

 

I think the $10K solution was just a publicity stunt to get some

more free advertising

 

many of their prizes and rewards never seem to be given

 

like the prize for the 'new big thing'

which happened to be 3 things

[Yaha]

I do believe PCGS works very hard to make sure each party is 100% happy during a problem discussed in this old thread. I have never had any issues with receiving more than market value+ for a few coins I returned in their slabs..

 

As to the 10k guarantee for the infamous Milk stains...

Well, if I ever have a solution for the "Spotting" problem on ASE's I could never collect.

The reason seems.. Bammed members are locked into the 100 year Junk Folder with no chance of ever receiving a reply from numerous emails sent or personal letters post marked to the President..

 

Again, I have no chance ever collecting the reward if I came up with the antedote..

 

P.S. BTW.. I do have a solution to rid those Milk Spots from ASE's.. It might be consider doctoring of the coin.

[halfpint]

 

...isn't it thought by many that the spots occurred after the coin was slabbed? if

 

so, one must wonder, what are they doing to the coin? are they dipping it in

 

something? if so STOP IT!! maybe that is the cure.

[MarkFeld]

...isn't it thought by many that the spots occurred after the coin was slabbed? if

 

so, one must wonder, what are they doing to the coin? are they dipping it in

 

something? if so STOP IT!! maybe that is the cure.

The fact that coins change after having been slabbed, doesn't necessarily mean anything has been done to them.

[halfpint]

 

...you're probably right, mark. i should have said 'milk spots' since i really was referring to those.

[MarkFeld]

...you're probably right, mark. i should have said 'milk spots' since i really was referring to those.

My answer would be the same with respect to milk spots, as well - chances are that they develop because of something done by the Mint in their preparation, not because a grading company does something to them.

[halfpint]

 

...i guess i should be saying some collectors blame the TPG's and some

 

blame the mint and yet others blame the collector for their storage habits. i

 

guess somebody needs the blame but who should that be?

[HiHoAudio]

Blame it on the Bossa Nova.

[Coindude]

I posted this a while back, and posted ATS. A couple of the big boys thought I would get myself banned by my question.

 

I had a 65 cent in 65 cam, a ~$600 coin, of which I had to pay $600 to replace. As far as I was concerned that was going market value for a coin that was truly a 65 cam, although if you look at Teletrade they can and will go for about $450.

 

I was offered $415 if they kept the coin and $400 if I wanted the coin back in a 64 non cam slab.

 

I didn't consider the offer fair, but that's all they would do, so I asked the question, is PCGS's guarantee fair?

 

Many came back that they thought the offer was fair, a couple thought it should be more, but mostly they thought I was getting a fair deal, of course, had it been a more popular series, would they still think that? I realize that high grade and cameo SMS trade at what would be considered a thin market, but they are quite rare and undervalued, especially the 65's.

 

So, in my opinion, it's not totally fair, as their own priceguides will say that a coin is worth X amount, but when it's time to pay out, they might consider your X coin only worth Y dollars. Otherwise known as comparing apples to oranges.

[James_OldeTowne]

their own priceguides will say that a coin is worth X amount, but when it's time to pay out, they might consider your X coin only worth Y dollars.

That is precisely why I hate (either) the way the PCGS "guarantee" works or their "price guide", which seems designed simply to inflate the value of coins in their holders.

 

[RWB]

PCGS was given information and experiments to conduct to determine how the spots were made. One of them "bosses" claimed they didn't have time or personnel to do the tests....guess it was cheaper to pay off than fix the problem.

[michael]

their own priceguides will say that a coin is worth X amount, but when it's time to pay out, they might consider your X coin only worth Y dollars.

That is precisely why I hate (either) the way the PCGS "guarantee" works or their "price guide", which seems designed simply to inflate the value of coins in their holders.

 

agreed

 

 

and

 

oh my

 

my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my

[michael]

PCGS was given information and experiments to conduct to determine how the spots were made. One of them "bosses" claimed they didn't have time or personnel to do the tests....guess it was cheaper to pay off than fix the problem.

 

true true

 

 

and kool-aid drinkers dont hate