Interesting post across the street: Modern grade guarantee and consequences

[truthteller]

After four months, no satisfactory resolution for the collector. Muliply this by a dozen customers, and it's a PR nightmare.

 

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=405103

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[BankNote1]

I am surprised that this was left up on the CU forum! Whomever started this MS70 s_ _t should be shot, IMO... That is one reason I like to buy coins in "old" holders.

[michael]

sounds like this wholesaler needs to be mostly responsible and is supposed to be knowledgable a marketmaker as the customer implies in his thread

 

and if the wholesaler is making a profit on the coins and the wholesalers clients keep using the grade guarantee and pcgs is paYING out lots of $$$$$$

 

then the wholesaler should pay something as the wholesaler knows that there is a problem and if the wholesaler keeps selling these items then he is ultimately responsible for his actions

 

is this wholesaler showing his actions by also putting away these hi grade coins ? is this wholesaler selling the coins in these gaga holders for huge $$$ and making the end buyers think they azre getting great value??? sure seems so as pcgs says that the collector values these coins much higher than pcgs is will to pay

 

 

this wholesaler from what the buyer with the problem spotted coins seems to imply that this wholesaler is and admits to being able to telol 69 from 70 coins

 

well then the wholesaler is not doing the job and from past admissions on the wholesalers part the wholesaler is telling the clients of these expensive pieces of plastic to submit to pcgs and washes their hands of it

 

why does this wholesaler get all the profit and pcgs pays the bills?

 

and why so many customers need to submit to pcgs for as such a guarantee?

 

and the customer values the coins way over retail accourding to pcgs!

 

the wholesaler cant take care of this with pcgs on behalf of standing behind their products and then makes excusesfor the collector making this public on theforums

 

well then mister wholesaler taKE care of your goods you sold and resolve it yourself you sold and promoted these rare pieces of plastic to your clients if the coin is so good a nice dip and even a one point downgrade does not mean losing 99% of your money and if it does you got one hell of a nerve not standing behind your product and not standing up to taking care of it not only with you resolving it but going back to another third party who is finally tired of paying for your profit hit sell and run

 

stand by what you recommend and what you sell and your so called expertise in being able to tell a big difference between a lowly 69 from a world class 70 that is many multiplies of the price of a 69

 

something stinks in denmark

 

ultimately the coin should be worth at least 75% of its value out of the holder as in the holder

 

sounds like something is fishy here

 

something stinks on denmark to me

[michael]

also looks like this wholesalers clients and a grading service is paying for the wholesalers large income as such

 

something here stinks to me\

 

when the collector wants or thinks the coins are worth x amount and the grading service does not want to settle seems like everyone esle is takingthe fall and not the original seller promoter hypester of the rare plastic

 

interesting if this wholesaler sold these coins obviously for wholesale to the customer why are they so overvalued in the clients mind

 

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

and does this wholesaler put their money where their mouth is and in their personal stash of coins they are putting away for a rainy day iwonder if they are all these gaga grade NCLT bullion coins?

 

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

actions speak louder than words and it seems this wholesaler cant take care of a so called simple grade guarantee problem for his customer with the grading service no one wants to do any actions and pay anything

 

lots of fancy talk and supposedly good reasoning but the fact remains that the collector is screwed and sounds like this is not the first time this has happened

 

if these coins are so great and special then let the wholesaler buy them back or at least make an offer or take care of the stinkweed that is being peddled

 

might be legal and it was legal in ancient rome to kill your slaves but this does not make it right

 

and rome the greatest empire on the face of the earth fell too and even their latin language is a dead language

 

i wonder when this house of [#@$%!!!] will fall?? if ever due to sucker born every minute spoon fed by a huckster

[gmarguli]

I read the original thread before "technal (sic) difficulties" removed the entire thread. It was also before Mitch/Wondercoin was outed as the seller, but I had a good idea it was him.

 

I'm not so sure that Wondercoin is to blame for this situation or is wrong at all. Whether he is a wholesaler/dealer/whatever selling the coin, it is up to the buyer to make sure he is happy with the coin. If the coins turn later on, that is what the grading guarantee is for. While in a perfect world the dealer would take the coins back, I can understand a dealer not wanting to be in the middle of it. I'm not so sure any of us would be happy to start taking back coins that turned if there was a remedy for the buyer to get from the grading company.

 

As for what he charges for these plastic rarities, if someone is willing to pay it, that's the market price. Many people think others are insane to pay these prices, but some people clearly need the ego boost of buying plastic rarities. It's their money.

 

I have a rather hard time believing that the customer was asking for "above retail" compensation. If this was the case, why didn't PCGS just go to the open market (or Wondercoin since he's right there) and purchase replacements for these coins? That is an option of the guarantee. The pops are fairly decent in size, so I bet they could be replaced. In fact, I bet if I called Wondercoin and told him to get me a set, he'd be able to do it and it wouldn't take 8 months.

 

I'd like to know what the person was asking for. Retail price should either be what the PCGS Price Guides says it is (if they want to be scumbags and put out a price guide with wildly inflated numbers, they should have to use it) or what the average selling price was of these in the past few months. Seems pretty simple.

 

 

Now that I've said that, anyone interested in a 2003 SAE that I just made in PF70UCAM?

[James_OldeTowne]

I think PCGS is 100% responsible, and the obvious thing to do is to pay back to Ben the exact amount he paid to Wondercoin, exclusive of shipping charges, etc, and regardless of what PCGS considers the correct "retail value". Personally, I think that the intermediary that sells a certified coin has no responsibility whatsoever in a case like this, because the whole purpose of the grading guarantee is to absolve the buyer and seller of the quality of the coin and it's condition.

 

(Of course, the buyer and seller are responsible for appropriate storage conditions.)

 

I have no affiliation whatsoever with either the buyer or seller.

 

James

[SilverDollarMan]

Here is a copy of the e-mail I sent davey:

 

Come on Dave, u guy's r going downhill FAST, selling coins too. In Ur thread u said "If U got a problem contact me" well that's what Ben did.

This seems 2 me to be the RUN AROUND.

 

Oh, I get it Big guy beats up little guy.

 

 

 

Come on Dave, save PCGS it's sinking!

 

I 4 one will NEVER buy another PCGS graded coin.

 

Thanks

[Tradedollarnut]

!

[gmarguli]

I think PCGS is 100% responsible, and the obvious thing to do is to pay back to Ben the exact amount he paid to Wondercoin, exclusive of shipping charges, etc, and regardless of what PCGS considers the correct "retail value".

 

There is a big problem with that. The market has been hot the last few years. Suppose I buy a bunch of coins as an investment - let's say $10K worth. Two years later I go to look at them and they all turned. The same coins in the grades my are slabbed at are now selling for 20K. If a grading company tried to give me 10K because that is what I paid, I'd be plenty pissed as they are not making me whole again and the coins can't be replaced for that.

 

Also, if the coins dropped in value to 5K, I wouldn't expect the grading company to give me 10K.

 

Purchase price should have nothing to do with what they pay you. Market price should.

[supertooth]

Truth----You bring up a point that has bothered me for many years. When I was a kid, I ordered say a 1960 Proof set from the mint. Paid the few bucks for it and usually thought how "pretty" the coins were. Back in those days, noone really had any numbers to grade the coins by. Sure, dealers would call a set a choice or a gem set. But, to most of us, that meant nothing more than maybe that particular set was just a little "nicer" than some of the others. I agree with BankNote1 ---whoever started this "marketing adventure" in obtaining these so-called "perfect" coins----well---he or she had money, and only money, ON THE BRAIN. So---who do we blame for where this has gone?? The dealers? Who submit and resubmit and resubmit?? The high flying "Market" people? Who hype these pieces in ads, on TV, in papers and mags. Making profits beyond any reasonable person"s expectations. The public??---Notice I do not call them "collectors". For they are being duped daily into believing that somehow these coins or sets are being sent down from on high----and, just maybe, if they do not buy this coin or set, there will never--ever be another produced to match its quality. Or do we blame the TPGS?? For they are fueling the "fire" and hyping the Registry sets nonstop. They are grading----why----because they are being paid to grade---being paid to grade these straight from the mint coins. Or do we blame the mint and its minting process?? How dare they produce a proof coin that may spot or tarnish or whatever over a period of time. By gosh it must always look like a 70-----Must it not?? No and I say No again. It is not one of these but ALL OF THESE that we should blame. For the sole reason for all of it is to MAKE MONEY. And until we get rid of GREED [which IMHO we will never do]---we must expect and accept the consequences of that GREED. And coins turning in holders is but one of those consequences. Sure, some may say that some consumers are just "stupid" and they should be responsible for their own actions. But that stupidity is also one of the consequences of the GREED. Bob [supertooth]

[James_OldeTowne]

Greg, put the shoe on the other foot, though. In 1998, you buy a 1998 ASE in PCGS PR-70 for, say, $1000, the current market value at that time. Today, the population skyrockets, and the present value has fallen to $150. Meanwhile, your coin develops spots. Should you only get $150?

 

I believe you should receive $1000.

 

The thing is, I think that for coins of this nature, the market isn't necessarily so "hot". I think the market price of many modern coins has actually decreased as their pops rise.

 

James

[Tradedollarnut]

No, you should get current market value. After all, it's the TPG's option to simply replace the coin... which they can do by going out on the open market and buying one.

[chinook]

Greg, put the shoe on the other foot, though. In 1998, you buy a 1998 ASE in PCGS PR-70 for, say, $1000, the current market value at that time. Today, the population skyrockets, and the present value has fallen to $150. Meanwhile, your coin develops spots. Should you only get $150?

 

I believe you should receive $1000.

 

The thing is, I think that for coins of this nature, the market isn't necessarily so "hot". I think the market price of many modern coins has actually decreased as their pops rise.

 

James

 

I believe you should get the current market value. This is the same as going back to your broker 7 years later and saying you want $800/ share for your YAHOO stock. It is also the same as going to you RE broker today wanting the current market value of the house you sold in 1998.

[cpm9ball]

Truth----You bring up a point that has bothered me for many years. When I was a kid, I ordered say a 1960 Proof set from the mint. Paid the few bucks for it and usually thought how "pretty" the coins were. Back in those days, noone really had any numbers to grade the coins by. Sure, dealers would call a set a choice or a gem set. But, to most of us, that meant nothing more than maybe that particular set was just a little "nicer" than some of the others. I agree with BankNote1 ---whoever started this "marketing adventure" in obtaining these so-called "perfect" coins----well---he or she had money, and only money, ON THE BRAIN. So---who do we blame for where this has gone?? The dealers? Who submit and resubmit and resubmit?? The high flying "Market" people? Who hype these pieces in ads, on TV, in papers and mags. Making profits beyond any reasonable person"s expectations. The public??---Notice I do not call them "collectors". For they are being duped daily into believing that somehow these coins or sets are being sent down from on high----and, just maybe, if they do not buy this coin or set, there will never--ever be another produced to match its quality. Or do we blame the TPGS?? For they are fueling the "fire" and hyping the Registry sets nonstop. They are grading----why----because they are being paid to grade---being paid to grade these straight from the mint coins. Or do we blame the mint and its minting process?? How dare they produce a proof coin that may spot or tarnish or whatever over a period of time. By gosh it must always look like a 70-----Must it not?? No and I say No again. It is not one of these but ALL OF THESE that we should blame. For the sole reason for all of it is to MAKE MONEY. And until we get rid of GREED [which IMHO we will never do]---we must expect and accept the consequences of that GREED. And coins turning in holders is but one of those consequences. Sure, some may say that some consumers are just "stupid" and they should be responsible for their own actions. But that stupidity is also one of the consequences of the GREED. Bob [supertooth]

 

You said a mouthful, Bob!

 

Chris

[supertooth]

When I send in a coin to NGC to be graded, I fill in the line that says "declared" value. It does not say----what did you pay for it or what grade do you think that your coin is or what do you think it is worth now in today"s market. No, you have a certain "liberty" to place a value on your coin which I have been told that the TPGS people pay absolutely no attention to----other than as a reference for their return insurance purposes. So NGC or PCGS really does not care what you paid for the coin. That was between the buyer and seller. So, IMHO, PCGS could go out and buy a PF70 for whatever the current price might be and make Ben whole again at that current market price. Because they were not aware of what Ben actually paid for the coin in the first place. Whether that current market price is higher or lower than what Ben originally paid is, to me, unimportant----as long as he has been made whole. But---there is another point that should be made here. And that point is this. Why would PCGS or anybody else start to grade coins as PF70----which is perfect---- when they know that more than likely "Something" will happen to the coin in the future that will change that evaluation?? Even more than that---Why would PCGS or anybody else be foolish enough to think that "ANY MINTED" U.S.coin would be produced so well by our mint that it would never be altered by our environment?? And lastly---Why would PCGS or anybody else be foolish enough to "GUARANTEE" a perfect coin?? Did they foolishly think that noone would ever come back on them to complain? Or demand satisfaction? No, again I say that Making Money was their only goal and that GREED blinded them to the fact that nothing can ever be expected to stay a perfect 70. This problem started years ago but is now only coming to a head. And, I suspect with more and more higher graded coins, that prices will continue to fall as the populations of top graded "modern" coins increase. If the mint had produced only say 5,000 coins, then this would not happen. But we all know what the numbers of "modern" coin production end up at----usually very high numbers. And I will make one final point here. That is that IMHO Ben is not without some fault here in this matter. Did he believe that his perfect coins at PR70 would always stay perfect PF70 coins?? If he did, then he falls into that "public" and not collector status that I made in the previous thread. Folks---it just does not forever stay perfect. Bob [supertooth]

[Morgannut]

PCGS should just pick up another one, dip it correctly, grade it the same, and replace the bad coin. Happens all the time with other manufactured goods, even plastic ones.

[truthteller]

PCGS has a problem. With many modern coins in high grade and low populations, the transactions occur at outrageous price levels. As long as PCGS guarantees these high end coins with no thought to price controls, PCGS will be liable down the line. In addition, PCGS price guides are issued by the same company that grades the coins. Thus, PCGS has full knowledge of retail value, however unrealistic it may be.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Tradedollarnut]

No problem at all ... simply flood the market with freshly graded 70's and market value will plummet in no time.

[truthteller]

No problem at all ... simply flood the market with freshly graded 70's and market value will plummet in no time.

 

 

Wouldn't the same scenario hold true for proof trade dollars.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Hoot]

Does "perfection" in the sense of an MS/PF70 coin have a range? After all, all the other grades do. And is perfection what we see with the naked eye, or a 5x loupe, or 10x, etc? Is there a time limit on the study of any coin for the assignment of a grade? I have yet to see a commonly good argument for not calling coins MS/PF70, nor have I seen a commonly good argument for the opposite. The standard is not well defined and the monetary basis of any grade, including MS/PF70, is subjective and based on collector demand - quite unlike the assignment of a grade.

 

Hoot

[supertooth]

Hoot-----Since I have been on the boards, I have followed the opinions of many. This post I find that, as usual, I mostly agree with BankNote1----with James[mostly]----with truthteller---with Greg---and with you. But I would like to take a stab at your thread---try to answer you as I understand the grade of 70. When I was in school---long time ago---we used the term "infinity". It was used in more than one way but a fraction that did not have an ending or a power that had no end were two ways that it was used. So I could grade a coin a 69 and say that it was a 69 all the way to "infinity". You could "create" all sorts of things as to why a coin was only a 69----because you had an "infinity" of distance between 69 and a 70. However, when you reach 70, there is no further room to "wiggle". And, as this system has been created, 70 is the "ultimate". It is perfection. So, to me at least, there is a "range" between the 69 and the 70. But "NO" range at 70. Because there is nothing higher. There is no 70.000000001-----Now as to grading at that level of 70. I have been told that most coins get 3 seconds. Personally, I can give a grade in 3 seconds and, if it is a Walker, I'll be pretty darn close. But, if it were a PF69 Anything, I would want more time. And then I still probably would not feel comfortable. So, if they think it is a 70, do we give them more time to grade it? To make sure? My personal wishes would say yes---give them all the time that they need. But business constraints prevent that, so the grading service likely wants it done in the same 3 seconds as all the rest of the coins. Would be interesting to know just how each grader would approach this dilemma-----but us collectors are not privy to such inside information. Maybe Greg or you or somebody could fill me in on that? Does the "finalizer" take more time for a 70? Now, at least to me, there ought never,ever be a coin graded a 70. PCGS nor anybody else should not attempt to grade a coin "Perfect". Why?? Because someone with a loupe of some power will always find an imperfection of some kind once the coin is slabbed. In three seconds, noone can check that coin for "Perfection" IMHO. But, if you grade it a 69, you do have "wiggle" room and you do have "range". Makes sense to me. Bob [supertooth]

[cpm9ball]

Hoot-----Since I have been on the boards, I have followed the opinions of many. This post I find that, as usual, I mostly agree with BankNote1----with James[mostly]----with truthteller---with Greg---and with you. But I would like to take a stab at your thread---try to answer you as I understand the grade of 70. When I was in school---long time ago---we used the term "infinity". It was used in more than one way but a fraction that did not have an ending or a power that had no end were two ways that it was used. So I could grade a coin a 69 and say that it was a 69 all the way to "infinity". You could "create" all sorts of things as to why a coin was only a 69----because you had an "infinity" of distance between 69 and a 70. However, when you reach 70, there is no further room to "wiggle". And, as this system has been created, 70 is the "ultimate". It is perfection. So, to me at least, there is a "range" between the 69 and the 70. But "NO" range at 70. Because there is nothing higher. There is no 70.000000001-----Now as to grading at that level of 70. I have been told that most coins get 3 seconds. Personally, I can give a grade in 3 seconds and, if it is a Walker, I'll be pretty darn close. But, if it were a PF69 Anything, I would want more time. And then I still probably would not feel comfortable. So, if they think it is a 70, do we give them more time to grade it? To make sure? My personal wishes would say yes---give them all the time that they need. But business constraints prevent that, so the grading service likely wants it done in the same 3 seconds as all the rest of the coins. Would be interesting to know just how each grader would approach this dilemma-----but us collectors are not privy to such inside information. Maybe Greg or you or somebody could fill me in on that? Does the "finalizer" take more time for a 70? Now, at least to me, there ought never,ever be a coin graded a 70. PCGS nor anybody else should not attempt to grade a coin "Perfect". Why?? Because someone with a loupe of some power will always find an imperfection of some kind once the coin is slabbed. In three seconds, noone can check that coin for "Perfection" IMHO. But, if you grade it a 69, you do have "wiggle" room and you do have "range". Makes sense to me. Bob [supertooth]

 

Very good, Grasshopper! It makes sense to me.

 

Chris

[cladking]

Obviously there is no such thing as perfection even in moderns. I agree that the finest coins should be called 69's but the simple fact is that it matters little what they are called, just that they are different than the next lower grade.

 

Incredibly PCGS does not only gaurantee the moderns which are easily graded due to the fact they rarely have rub or surface problems but they even gaurantee the classics they grade. This protects all collectors from having something go wrong with the coin after being slabbed or in being poorly graded or authenticated originally.

[DonHeath]

According to many, all PCGS has to do is reholder a bunch of 69s as 70s and mail them to the guy. No collector could tell the difference.

 

I have no idea what the collector values the coins, what he paid, or why David chose to leave Wondercoin's post up after deleting all the others, but it would appear to me as an uninformed rube that PCGS will settle by either replacing the coins or paying the price guide number. Since thats the inevitable (in my mind) outcome, waiting to settle just makes an enemy of a customer that supported you product, reputation, and marketing. The rest is just foreplay.

[shirohniichan]

"According to many, all PCGS has to do is reholder a bunch of 69s as 70s and mail them to the guy. No collector could tell the difference."

 

Are you going to be PCGS's new marketing liason officer?

[DonHeath]

Are you going to be PCGS's new marketing liason officer?

 

When you become their personnel director, call me.

[truthteller]

" or why David chose to leave Wondercoin's post up after deleting all the others"

 

 

I was not aware of this. Sounds very suspicious.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[SilverDollarMan]

What about making the TG companies replace the coin, if possible, if not, pay FMV.

I mean, lets face it, this is insurance. An insurance company will pay FMV.

[cpm9ball]

lets face it, this is insurance. An insurance company will pay FMV.

 

Not exactly insurance where you pay an annual premium to indemnify your property against loss. It is simply a warranty by the TPG for services rendered. I would be surprised if insurance policies written specifically for numismatics would cover such things as "environmental" damage or loss due to decrease in market value.

 

Chris

[supertooth]

Agree with Chris All the way on this one. Bob [supertooth]