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Grade on this USA 1831 Dime 10 Cents
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Started by Tobias J Reily,

31 posts in this topic

Hoghead515

Hoghead515

Posted
Posted

Maybe uncirculated. Details. After a second look it what I thought was a little bit of rub may not be. It was the way I was looking at it. But it looks like its been cleaned to me at one time. Im just guessing. Im not very expirenced on these. 

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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted

    In my opinion, a grading service would either give this 1831 Capped Bust, close collar strike dime a low mint state grade no higher than MS 62 or give it an uncirculated details grade as "cleaned".  AU 58 or AU details are also possible results. The dull gray color, lack of mint frost or original toning, and scattered groups of hairlines suggest that the coin was "dipped" in an anti-tarnish solution, probably more than once, and was also likely wiped with a cloth. If you have ever seen examples of Choice to Gem Uncirculated (MS 64 or better) examples of this series, you will immediately see the difference.  It's still a nice, well-struck piece for the right price, as most surviving examples are worn and/or impaired.

   

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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted

It is a Mint State coin. (I reject as less than useless any reference to cleaning or details.) If that were true, no "debris" would be found on its legends.)  A lot can happen in nearly 200 years, none of which its latest owner should be held responsible for.  To me, improper toothbrushing technique as it relates to denticular structure suggests no attempt -- not even amateurish -- was made to restore them to their original state.

With great misgivings, as an unaccredited guest grader, I am not prepared to yield to my far more learned colleagues and dare suggest this coin deserves less than MS-62 assessment. Irrespective of any opinion, any card-carrying collector would be proud to own this coin in the absence and knowledge of official mintage figures and subsequent certifications.

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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted
On 8/12/2023 at 5:11 PM, ldhair said:

Question. Can a coin without luster receive an uncirculated details cleaned grade? 

It all depends on whose opinion is sought and what grading service is consulted. (Nobody thought it odd that bidding on an AG-03 '31-S Saint began at $60K or a '33 a rocket-propelled grenade wound featured prominently on one leg sold for $10M, right?) And besides, do matte proofs feature any luster at all? Is "toning" technically PMD, as one member opined?

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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted
On 8/12/2023 at 5:11 PM, ldhair said:

Can a coin without luster receive an uncirculated details cleaned grade? 

  I've seen a number of "uncirculated details" pieces in reputable certified holders with little or no luster due to cleaning. I've also seen dull uncirculated pieces graded MS 60 to 62. The OP's coin shows some luster between the stars and letters and has no observable "rub" or wear from circulation. I myself own an 1834 Capped Bust dime that I purchased NGC certified as "uncirculated details, improperly cleaned" that is fully detailed like the OP's but has little or no luster and some blotchy toning:

1834Bustdimeobv.jpg.7a55b385ec730a662af60374930e4e7a.jpg

1834Bustdimerev.jpg.d2177a4c31cc9a9b77632ca78f610c68.jpg

Photos courtesy of Stacks Bowers Galleries.

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Mike Meenderink

Mike Meenderink

Posted
Posted (edited)

IMO this is an impaired proof coin. It is exceptionally well struck. It is not harshly cleaned. It may have been cleaned however that can not be determined from pictures. It has been roughly handled and possibly circulated. The video shows reflectivity (reasonably clear thumb reflections) under the white hazing which is under the dark sulfur crust spots. It looks like a proof that went off the reservation. 

Edited by Mike Meenderink
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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted
On 8/12/2023 at 7:58 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

IMO this is an impaired proof coin.

    Apart from the very vaguely prooflike surfaces and good strike, what is the factual basis of this assertion? If these were the main criteria for attributing an early U.S. coin as a proof, they would be far more common than the major rarities that they are generally believed to be.  The NGC Coin Explorer states regarding the 1831 Capped Bust dime that "[t]he actual number of proofs for this date is uncertain, but a figure of around half a dozen is likely."  1831 10C PF | Coin Explorer | NGC (ngccoin.com).

   If you are comfortable with your opinion, you may wish to offer the OP a price worthy of a proof.  The lowest price on the NGC Price Guide is $22,000 for a PF 63, but in all likelihood this possibly impaired one could be had for less.  For that matter, my 1834 is also quite well struck and may have some slightly prooflike glimmers as well. Any offers?

   

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Mike Meenderink

Mike Meenderink

Posted
Posted
On 8/12/2023 at 6:12 PM, Sandon said:

    Apart from the very vaguely prooflike surfaces and good strike, what is the factual basis of this assertion? If these were the main criteria for attributing an early U.S. coin as a proof, they would be far more common than the major rarities that they are generally believed to be.  The NGC Coin Explorer states regarding the 1831 Capped Bust dime that "[t]he actual number of proofs for this date is uncertain, but a figure of around half a dozen is likely."  1831 10C PF | Coin Explorer | NGC (ngccoin.com).

   If you are comfortable with your opinion, you may wish to offer the OP a price worthy of a proof.  The lowest price on the NGC Price Guide is $22,000 for a PF 63, but in all likelihood this possibly impaired one could be had for less.  For that matter, my 1834 is also quite well struck and may have some slightly prooflike glimmers as well. Any offers?

   

They have to come from somewhere. If this is indeed a proof it would make sense it would look like this if it was improperly stored or improperly handled. If this coin has looked this way for long time I doubt anyone would truly look closely at it enough to see that it is very much prooflike.

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Hoghead515

Hoghead515

Posted
Posted (edited)

I dont think its a proof. I think its just the look from it in the picture making it look like that. Where its been cleaned back a few years ago and is starting to retone. Id almost bet money on it that its a circulation strike. From what Ive seen proofs in this date are very rare. I think its just a well struck circulation strike like the one in the picture @Sandon shared. 

Edited by Hoghead515
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Mike Meenderink

Mike Meenderink

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/12/2023 at 6:41 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I dont think its a proof. I think its just the look from it in the picture making it look like that. Where its been cleaned back a few years ago and is starting to retone. Id almost bet money on it that its a circulation strike. From what Ive seen proofs in this date are very rare. I think its just a well struck circulation strike like the one in the picture @Sandon shared. 

It very well may be a business strike coin but I have watched his video several times and I see a VERY clear reflection of his thumb and finger at 3 points in the video. That flash on angle is reflection through the white haze on the coin telling me the surface underneath is so smooth it can still reflect light like a mirror even though the top contaminants are doing their best to stop it. Plus the white haze is indicative of proof coin milk haze or milk spots. IMO

Edited by Mike Meenderink
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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted (edited)

AU, About or About Unicirculated, is about as helpful and informative as AP, or Almost Pregnant.

A Proof is a Proof is a Proof regardless the trials and tribulations it appears to have gone through. (No AU to my knowledge) has ever been described as APL, or About or Almost Prooflike.)

And to the members who are fixated on "cleaned coins," or "cleaning" generally, how may coins recovered from the S.S. Central America were presented, displayed, or sold to the public, without" conservation. And if conservation in no way, shape or form involves "cleaning," I don't know what does... or is there a distinction between sorcerers on the Forum who use distilled water, vinegar or acetone, without a license, in some way looked down upon by the licensed, credentialed,  experienced accredited, "professional conservationists"? Hmmm...

Edited by Henri Charriere
Inquiry... and more.
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VKurtB

VKurtB

Posted
Posted
On 8/12/2023 at 4:11 PM, ldhair said:

Question. Can a coin without luster receive an uncirculated details cleaned grade? 

Sure, but what about lighting? Luster can be revealed OR hidden by lighting.

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted
On 8/12/2023 at 7:58 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

IMO this is an impaired proof coin. It is exceptionally well struck. It is not harshly cleaned. It may have been cleaned however that can not be determined from pictures. It has been roughly handled and possibly circulated. The video shows reflectivity (reasonably clear thumb reflections) under the white hazing which is under the dark sulfur crust spots. It looks like a proof that went off the reservation. 

Have you ever examined an authentic Master Coin from the 1830s?

Please tell us what you observed.

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VKurtB

VKurtB

Posted
Posted
On 8/14/2023 at 4:29 PM, RWB said:

Have you ever examined an authentic Master Coin from the 1830s?

Please tell us what you observed.

Roger, much like Johnny Cash, he's been everywhere, man. He's seen everything. He knows everything. He's an omniscient, all powerful, benevolent numismatist. You are "only" the ANA Numismatist of the Year, Roger. Mikey the Omniscient is the coin God. All genuflect. :roflmao:

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Hoghead515

Hoghead515

Posted
Posted
On 8/14/2023 at 7:49 PM, zadok said:

...while ur doing that get me a vomit emoji as well....

Ive seen a few times I could have used that one as well. 

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