MS-70 Circulation strike 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

The following is a verbatim reply I received, in pertinent part, from Robert Nagy, Senior Sales Manager, Numismatic Advisor, International Markets regarding French 20-franc gold roosters

".... Meanwhile, I did send your request to our experts: as soon as a[n] MS-70 is available for the mint year you are looking for [1910, 1913 and/or 1914 (all resrikes) I will inform you personally."

His contact:  robert.nagy@numiscorner.com.

FYI:  the number of MS-67 grades awarded by the top two TPGS can be counted on two hands.  MS-68: Zero; MS-69: Zero; and MS-70: Zero.

Rather than question the optimistic expertise of an experienced Frenchman, I have chosen to let nature takes its course.

[GoldFinger1969]

You don't really think that an MS-70 coin from that long ago even exists ? 

We can't find anything that's a 70 going back before about 1960, I believe, for U.S. Small Denomination coins.  And you say you can't find anything higher than MS-67 for the Roosters, right ?

Even the preserved MCMVII UHR Saints can't top PF-69.  And those go back about the same time as your Rooster search, to 1907.

Edited August 5, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

If located, you will receive an FDC piece. Since the definition of "MS-70" was omitted, you might also receive a coin the a hole in it.... Talk to Quintus about this -- he's dealt with it before.

[Henri Charriere]

I have dealt with these people for years.  The very worst that can happen, already has, to some extent:  unable to produce, they beg off. On the other hand, my entreaties may prompt others to examine their stocks of FDC bullion, inspire networking and chatter.  It takes only one person to go the extra mile, take another look at existing inventory, and after consulting with others, submit it for certification. I have nothing to lose.

[GoldFinger1969]

HC, I'm confused...if there are no coins above MS-68, why await notification of an MS-70 ?  I would think you'd want to be alerted for anything MS-67 and above, no ?

[VKurtB]

On 8/29/2023 at 10:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

HC, I'm confused...if there are no coins above MS-68, why await notification of an MS-70 ?  I would think you'd want to be alerted for anything MS-67 and above, no ?

He spoke with someone who implicitly said MS-70’s exist. We call this type of person a m-o-r-o-n. The choice to do business with one of those is something with which I cannot help him. 

[zadok]

On 8/4/2023 at 11:24 PM, Henri Charriere said:

The following is a verbatim reply I received, in pertinent part, from Robert Nagy, Senior Sales Manager, Numismatic Advisor, International Markets regarding French 20-franc gold roosters

".... Meanwhile, I did send your request to our experts: as soon as a[n] MS-70 is available for the mint year you are looking for [1910, 1913 and/or 1914 (all resrikes) I will inform you personally."

His contact:  robert.nagy@numiscorner.com.

FYI:  the number of MS-67 grades awarded by the top two TPGS can be counted on two hands.  MS-68: Zero; MS-69: Zero; and MS-70: Zero.

Rather than question the optimistic expertise of an experienced Frenchman, I have chosen to let nature takes its course.

...in layman's terms that referred to as a ...bowel movement....

[zadok]

On 8/29/2023 at 11:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

HC, I'm confused...if there are no coins above MS-68, why await notification of an MS-70 ?  I would think you'd want to be alerted for anything MS-67 and above, no ?

...there r many series of coins n even entire countries full denominations that have no ms70s known, especially in the date ranges being discussed...one prime example...the irish free state n republic...last i checked minimal irish ms67s n one ms68 coin certified n those virtually all from the 1960s, to find an ms67 free state coin would be shattering, even the earlier mint n proof sets seldom achieve ms66 status...n to venture into the gold issues of coins from the late 1890s n early 1900s considering the handling processes n the zealous cleaning attitudes those high grades virtually non-existent, as mentioned the only probable source would be an fdc coin struck for preservation purposes n not a business/circulation strike....

[Henri Charriere]

As I have indicated elsewhere, the French, the English, Germans, Italians, Spanish -- and the USA, all use their own grading systems.

I believe Numiscorner's intention in stating MS-70 was the same as saying, "We know, we know... FDC... MS-67.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter. I do not believe any TPGS recognizes FDC, per se. 

My personal feeling is graders have already checked and cherry-picked their stocks. I will await the results of a member's offer to try his hand at locating one.  Either a 1910, 1913 or 1914 MS-67 (and not one masquerading as one.)

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/29/2023 at 4:38 PM, zadok said:

...there r many series of coins n even entire countries full denominations that have no ms70s known, especially in the date ranges being discussed...one prime example...the irish free state n republic...last i checked minimal irish ms67s n one ms68 coin certified n those virtually all from the 1960s, to find an ms67 free state coin would be shattering, even the earlier mint n proof sets seldom achieve ms66 status...n to venture into the gold issues of coins from the late 1890s n early 1900s considering the handling processes n the zealous cleaning attitudes those high grades virtually non-existent, as mentioned the only probable source would be an fdc coin struck for preservation purposes n not a business/circulation strike....

Au contraire... in the Restrike series, dozens have been certified MS-67 and while no Originals have been so certified, two dozen Restrikes have been NGC-cerified as MS-67+ much of this activity having occurred in just the past two years.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Re-wording

[RWB]

Just have one made for you....

[zadok]

On 8/29/2023 at 4:56 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Au contraire... in the Restrike series, dozens have been certified MS-67 and while no Originals have been so certified, two dozen Restrikes have been NGC-cerified as MS-67+ much of this activity having occurred in just the past two years.

...learn to read...no one is talking bout the bullion french restrikes the comment concerned real coins of the irish free state n republic...its part of the british isles if u cant find it....

[Henri Charriere]

White noise not germane to the thrust of the conversation. Gratuitous. Superfluous. Got it.

[VKurtB]

On 8/29/2023 at 3:28 PM, zadok said:

...in layman's terms that referred to as a ...bowel movement....

… of bovine origin.

[Henri Charriere]

Back on Track!  🤣

When the coin I seek becomes available, what usually happens is it is advertised in three or more sites.  It's big news.  I think I have my tentacles out to 19 different sources (one of whom is so exclusive that money is a secondary consideration. You have to be referred, or otherwise vetted, for the privilege of placing an order with him tantamount to a background check minus the mug shot and prints.) Numiscorner is a reputable place I have done business with before. The reference to MS-70 is not so much realistic as it is fanciful.  There isn't a parlor anywhere in Europe who isn't aware my sole interest lies in certified MS-67's. No plus grades. Nothing finer. The west coast registry set, I decided, will hew to a -64's / -67's line, Originals / Restrikes.  And if I am not dethroned within the next 48 hours, I am In Like Flint, will retain my rank, and inherit an award. Now, if anyone is curious, they won't look for the 37" beard (shorn off on the Fourth of July) but look for the pin in my lapel. Man I love this place!

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/29/2023 at 4:49 PM, Henri Charriere said:

My personal feeling is graders have already checked and cherry-picked their stocks. I will await the results of a member's offer to try his hand at locating one.  Either a 1910, 1913 or 1914 MS-67 (and not one masquerading as one.)

The PF-69 MCMVII UHR from Trompeter/Morse is probably a 67+ or 68 at best....easy to overgrade below 70 but to overgrade and give out a 70 grade on a non-modern would be tough.

[Fenntucky Mike]

IFS coins are pretty much unheard of in 67, a 66 is a win MS or PF. I was looking at a couple of proof sets from '28 that were up for auction recently, both were subpar, one had no bidders the other went for around $400 if I remember correctly. It's not a particularly rare set, except in pristine condition. I'm Currently trying to assemble a complete set in 65 or better and was hoping purchasing an original set would get me to a good point, but no such luck yet. I'm half way there currently with the much tougher coins to go. 

Good luck with the roosters H.C..

[zadok]

On 8/30/2023 at 12:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The PF-69 MCMVII UHR from Trompeter/Morse is probably a 67+ or 68 at best....easy to overgrade below 70 but to overgrade and give out a 70 grade on a non-modern would be tough.

...not sure if Tyrant coin is that coin or not but at its next public display u should avail urself to go look in person, i saw no distractions on the coin....

[zadok]

On 8/30/2023 at 7:30 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

IFS coins are pretty much unheard of in 67, a 66 is a win MS or PF. I was looking at a couple of proof sets from '28 that were up for auction recently, both were subpar, one had no bidders the other went for around $400 if I remember correctly. It's not a particularly rare set, except in pristine condition. I'm Currently trying to assemble a complete set in 65 or better and was hoping purchasing an original set would get me to a good point, but no such luck yet. I'm half way there currently with the much tougher coins to go. 

Good luck with the roosters H.C..

...ur efforts echo several of mine, i have literally purchased 14-15 1928 mint sets of IFS trying to obtain one coin in ms66 to no avail...as im sure u r aware the proof sets, with only a 6001 mintage, r much more plentiful n realize higher certification grades...ur goal of ms65 is commendable, mine is just one grade higher...a set in 67 i believe is impossible...PM me on ur need i may have what u need in my upgraded coins....

p.s. back in the mid 80s i purchased the previous IFS mint masters collection n there were very few 66 coins in his sets which he hand selected...

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:25 AM, zadok said:

...not sure if Tyrant coin is that coin or not but at its next public display u should avail urself to go look in person, i saw no distractions on the coin....

I think there are 2 PF-69 UHRs....the Bass coin that just got sold....and the Trompeter/Morse which could be in the Tyrant Collection. 

Do you recall when Tyrant got the UHR if it was at auction, private sale...and if there was a news article on it ?  Sometimes there is news on a transaction...sometimes not.

When our friend EC just got his super-nice UHR, it was a private transaction with GC and there was an article in CoinWeek. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 8/30/2023 at 11:05 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think there are 2 PF-69 UHRs....the Bass coin that just got sold....and the Trompeter/Morse which could be in the Tyrant Collection. 

Do you recall when Tyrant got the UHR if it was at auction, private sale...and if there was a news article on it ?  Sometimes there is news on a transaction...sometimes now.  When our friend EC just got his super-nice UHR, it was a private transaction with GC and there was an article in CoinWeek. 

...there was a narrative adjacent to the coin n may have included its pedigree but i do not recall...i saw it on display at the WFM in chicago two years ago, it seems there was some publication at the display but i did not obtain one, it could be available thru the ANA, perhaps vkurt mite assist u there?....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/30/2023 at 11:10 AM, zadok said:

...there was a narrative adjacent to the coin n may have included its pedigree but i do not recall..

It's the MCMVII UHR owned by the Saint-Gaudens family.  This is the coin that has "ASG" on the inverted lettered edge.  It's unique and PF-68.

It is believed that Augusta (wife) or Homer (son) Saint-Gaudens inscribed "ASG" so that the coin (when on loan) would not be confused or mixed up with any other UHR.

Scroll down all the way to the bottom to see the coin:

https://www.thetyrantcollection.com/u-s-type-coins-from-the-tyrant-collection/ 

[zadok]

On 8/30/2023 at 2:03 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's the MCMVII UHR owned by the Saint-Gaudens family.  This is the coin that has "ASG" on the inverted lettered edge.  It's unique and PF-68.

It is believed that Augusta (wife) or Homer (son) Saint-Gaudens inscribed "ASG" so that the coin (when on loan) would not be confused or mixed up with any other UHR.

Scroll down all the way to the bottom to see the coin:

https://www.thetyrantcollection.com/u-s-type-coins-from-the-tyrant-collection/ 

...i guess i got the grade of lot 413 confused with lot 412...regardless they r both worth $20....

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/29/2023 at 3:51 PM, VKurtB said:

He spoke with someone who implicitly said MS-70’s exist....

Yes, and No.  

Following are three formats (there are more) used by different dealers affiliated with MA-SHOPS, which illustrate the dilemma:

[Note: 1 is certified; 2 and 3 are uncertified...]

1-  France 20 Francs 1910 Paris Coin, Marianne, Paris, NGC, MS67, Gold MS (65-70);

2.  France 20 Francs 1910 Paris Coin, Marianne, Paris, Gold KM: 857 MS (65-70);

3.  FRANCE 20 francs or Coq, Liberte Egalite Fraternite 1910 III REPUBLIC Paris 1910 (21mm, 6.45g, 6h) MS (65-70).

All describe the same identical coin, a 1910 French 20-franc gold rooster, using various descriptors, some with a measure of redundancy.

No one expects an MS-69 or MS-70 to be found in the gold Rooster series, but it falls within the FDC range. Buying RAW is a taking a gamble, and in some instances, an MS-67 can run twice the cost of an MS-66. If I were an ordinary coin collector, I would purchase uncertified coins [AND I COULD HAVE COMPLETED A SET FAIRLY QUICKLY]. But my tastes evolved to the point where buying coins which can turn out to be one of several different Mint State grades is not going to help me put together a Set Registry. Have I gotten burnt taking a chance and buying an FDC coin I had hoped would "make the grade"? Yes. It comes with the territory and may explain why only a handful of collectors have attempted to compile a Best Set in this series since the inception of TPG.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Substitution of word.

[World Colonial]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

If you contacted this source to communicate a "want list" for an already existing MS-67, this might work.

If you contacted them to find a candidate MS-67 ungraded where they will submit the coin to "make" the grade for you, I'm predicting you're going to be waiting a long time.  As in, you're never going to hear back from them.

The return for the time effort isn't there for any seller.

Something else?  If so, what?

[Henri Charriere]

@World Colonial 

Are you sure you want to hear the never-ending lamentations of a Set Registrant?  🤣

Briefly, my aspirations to assemble the finest set of French gold roosters has been thwarted. Every conceivable source has been consulted, every existing stock depleted and every promising lead run down... pffft!

Heard about the drought out west? Same thing. It's been this way for over two years. Any MS-67's? Nope, not yet!

Everyone who ought to know about my Want List (quaintly called a Wish List abroad) has been notified, and reminded quarterly. 

I believe all outstanding stocks of bullion dealers have long since been cherry-picked. And as you have observed on a number of occasions, certification is a distinctly American phenomenon; the French, the Europeans generally, have made do with a range of grades representing the upper crust since caveman times without problem. A member has graciously offered to investigate the matter personally and I wish him the best of luck. I have run out of options. Now, if I were to win the lottery, I would resort to outright bribery. Best is not good enough for me. I am a Virgo. Only Best possible set is acceptable. And when I get one more coin to move me closer to that goal I can finally get a good night's sleep.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/30/2023 at 5:39 PM, zadok said:

...i guess i got the grade of lot 413 confused with lot 412...regardless they r both worth $20....

Get me one of them...either one is OK.....I'll PayPal you the $20 plus give you $10 for your troubles. 

Wrap it in tissue paper when you mail it to me.  Forget Return Receipt or Certified, regular USPS will do. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 8/31/2023 at 1:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Get me one of them...either one is OK.....I'll PayPal you the $20 plus give you $10 for your troubles. 

Wrap it in tissue paper when you mail it to me.  Forget Return Receipt or Certified, regular USPS will do. 

...u got it, but mite half to buy a full roll....

[VKurtB]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:08 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Yes, and No.  

Following are three formats (there are more) used by different dealers affiliated with MA-SHOPS, which illustrate the dilemma:

[Note: 1 is certified; 2 and 3 are uncertified...]

1-  France 20 Francs 1910 Paris Coin, Marianne, Paris, NGC, MS67, Gold MS (65-70);

2.  France 20 Francs 1910 Paris Coin, Marianne, Paris, Gold KM: 857 MS (65-70);

3.  FRANCE 20 francs or Coq, Liberte Egalite Fraternite 1910 III REPUBLIC Paris 1910 (21mm, 6.45g, 6h) MS (65-70).

All describe the same identical coin, a 1910 French 20-franc gold rooster, using various descriptors, some with a measure of redundancy.

No one expects an MS-69 or MS-70 to be found in the gold Rooster series, but it falls within the FDC range. Buying RAW is a taking a gamble, and in some instances, an MS-67 can run twice the cost of an MS-66. If I were an ordinary coin collector, I would purchase uncertified coins [AND I COULD HAVE COMPLETED A SET FAIRLY QUICKLY]. But my tastes evolved to the point where buying coins which can turn out to be one of several different Mint State grades is not going to help me put together a Set Registry. Have I gotten burnt taking a chance and buying an FDC coin I had hoped would "make the grade"? Yes. It comes with the territory and may explain why only a handful of collectors have attempted to compile a Best Set in this series since the inception of TPG.

All that means one thing - the French grading system lacks sufficient specificity for the American marketplace. Having one grade encompass 65-70 is pretty difficult to defend.

[VKurtB]

On 8/30/2023 at 8:01 PM, Henri Charriere said:

@World Colonial 

Are you sure you want to hear the never-ending lamentations of a Set Registrant?  🤣

Briefly, my aspirations to assemble the finest set of French gold roosters has been thwarted. Every conceivable source has been consulted, every existing stock depleted and every promising lead run down... pffft!

Heard about the drought out west? Same thing. It's been this way for over two years. Any MS-67's? Nope, not yet!

Everyone who ought to know about my Want List (quaintly called a Wish List abroad) has been notified, and reminded quarterly. 

I believe all outstanding stocks of bullion dealers have long since been cherry-picked. And as you have observed on a number of occasions, certification is a distinctly American phenomenon; the French, the Europeans generally, have made do with a range of grades representing the upper crust since caveman times without problem. A member has graciously offered to investigate the matter personally and I wish him the best of luck. I have run out of options. Now, if I were to win the lottery, I would resort to outright bribery. Best is not good enough for me. I am a Virgo. Only Best possible set is acceptable. And when I get one more coin to move me closer to that goal I can finally get a good night's sleep.  

Finest known and finest possible are two different things. Finest known is a laudable goal. Seeking the finest possible (every coin a top pop) strikes me as obsessive.