1828 Half Dollar Capped Bust For Grading 2 2

[Tobias J Reily]

Here's a nice half dollar, what do you make of it? I posted on another forum too, just interested in more collective thoughts. Thanks in advance.

[VKurtB]

Looks XF-ish.

[Sandon]

  Although I would have graded this coin Choice Extremely Fine (XF 45) by the standards I learned decades ago, a grading service would likely grade it in the AU range (50, 53, or even 55) today. The final grade might depend on the amount of luster on the coin and other factors I can't see from the photos.

[zadok]

...50-53....

[Nutmeg Coin]

EF40-45.  I'm not seeing much if any luster.  Anything in the AU range would likely come back "improperly cleaned" as NGC likes to use if a coin has better details but little luster; and even EF coins should show luster.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Nutmeg Coin

[VKurtB]

This is a coin whose detail exceeds its luster. The hair is far better than the 1835 from another thread. But that 1835 has superior luster. This is where grading these buggers becomes more art than science. Ya gotta face facts. Grading these pups is not a linear function. Four or five attributes compete for primacy in determining the grade of these. Anyone who says ANYTHING like, "It can't be a X grade because it doesn't have attribute Y" is WRONG. There are several attributes in competition. MAYBE it used to be that way, but it isn't anymore. The hobby has moved on since the late 1980's. Those who remain stuck there (like the chief mod over at CT and at least one esteemed member here) are menaces to the hobby.

Edited July 31, 2023 by VKurtB

[Mike Meenderink]

Better ...but..This one has been previously cleaned and retoned. Most likely in an album (from the organic brown staining) My guess is it was harshly cleaned in the 50s collectors craze then booked in an album where it re toned like this. Then it was broken from an estate set years ago. My grade and evaluation is XF DETAILS CLEANED 

[Henri Charriere]

Perceived shortcomings, notwithstanding, considering the coin's vintage and limited circulation, this is a half-dollar collectors of any series would be proud to own. Great catch!

[ldhair]

I'll go with XF-45. Probably cleaned long ago like most Bust half dollars but I believe it would straight grade. Nice coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

Tobias, is this a coin you personally own ?  I presume it is raw ?

Where and when did you buy it, if it is yours ?

Nice-looking coin, as Cape Busts are not my area of knowledge, I won't venture a grading guess.

[VKurtB]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:33 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Better ...but..This one has been previously cleaned and retoned. Most likely in an album (from the organic brown staining) My guess is it was harshly cleaned in the 50s collectors craze then booked in an album where it re toned like this. Then it was broken from an estate set years ago. My grade and evaluation is XF DETAILS CLEANED 

I see none of the classic indicia of a harsh cleaning. This is a market acceptable straight grading coin.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/1/2023 at 1:51 PM, VKurtB said:

I see none of the classic indicia of a harsh cleaning. This is a market acceptable straight grading coin.

I see a severely impaired surface with clean pitting holes and newer black pitting spots. This indicates cleaning and retoning over many years. The brownish black corrosion (toning) looks like it is from being kept in a stiff cardboard paper coin book or album for many years. IMO this coin has been cleaned and re toned. Still it is as you said above a very nice details coin for its type. Any coin of this era unless badly damaged (even then some want them) cleaned or not are IMO worth conserving or collecting.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[zadok]

On 8/1/2023 at 4:51 PM, VKurtB said:

I see none of the classic indicia of a harsh cleaning. This is a market acceptable straight grading coin.

...u r correct....

[zadok]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:36 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

I see a severely impaired surface with clean pitting holes and newer black pitting spots. This indicates cleaning and retoning over many years. The brownish black corrosion (toning) looks like it is from being kept in a stiff cardboard paper coin book or album for many years. IMO this coin has been cleaned and re toned. Still it is as you said above a very nice details coin for its type. Any coin of this era unless badly damaged (even then some want them) cleaned or not are IMO worth conserving or collecting.

...u mite want to consider a visit with ur optometrist before ur next coin show....

[Coinbuf]

On 8/2/2023 at 2:05 PM, zadok said:

...u mite want to consider a visit with ur optometrist before ur next coin show....

Better eyes might help, but actual knowledge is what is needed here.   To the op, your coin most likely was cleaned at some time in the past, just not harshly as wrongly suggested by an unknowledgeable poster.   From your photos I see no reason it would not grade in the XF perhaps even AU range, in hand I might have a different opinion.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Coinbuf

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/2/2023 at 5:42 PM, Coinbuf said:

Better eyes might help, but actual knowledge is what is needed here.   To the op, your coin most likely was cleaned at some time in the past, just not harshly as wrongly suggested by an unknowledgeable poster.   From your photos I see no reason it would not grade in the XF perhaps even AU range, in hand I might have a different opinion.

You folks are pretty much in agreement it was cleaned, but still think it will be graded ? 

[Coinbuf]

On 8/2/2023 at 6:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You folks are pretty much in agreement it was cleaned, but still think it will be graded ? 

Cleaning is not an all or nothing event, it exists on a continuum from the most mild and gentile of methods that require a highly trained eye to detect to the painfully obvious.   Cleaning or brushing of coins was considered as a positive and done regularly by collectors for years.   As such coinage from this time frame have been exposed to many forms of cleanings, thus the TPGs and collecting community as a whole are somewhat more forgiving of those gently cleaned coins.   Especially when the coin has begun the process of retoning and the tone has a pleasing and quazi original look.   Right or wrong it is true that 18th and 19th century coins do get some leeway in this area that would not be given to 21st century coinage.

[VKurtB]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You folks are pretty much in agreement it was cleaned, but still think it will be graded ? 

When and how it was cleaned is the important factor, not a binary yes/no decision. If this was cleaned, is was gently and a long time ago. What IS obvious from studying this coin is that it spent a virtual eternity in an old style album. That’s what accounts for the toning pattern. There are no cleaning hairlines present nor are there the signs of cleaning around the stars in the protected areas. The more open field areas are light because of actual handling, nothing more. 

[Mike Meenderink]

Harshly cleaned.. gently cleaned makes no difference its still cleaned. I've never seen a holdered coin that says Details Gently Cleaned....but others here seem to know everything. Send it in and find out. I would at least certify this coin and have it placed in an NGC or PCGS Genuine label holder. If you want to spend the money on fully grading it by all means do it. Its your coin. Its your money. Oh and Kurt I already said everything you posted below. Thanks for reading it. 

On 8/3/2023 at 7:36 AM, VKurtB said:

When and how it was cleaned is the important factor, not a binary yes/no decision. If this was cleaned, is was gently and a long time ago. What IS obvious from studying this coin is that it spent a virtual eternity in an old style album. That’s what accounts for the toning pattern. There are no cleaning hairlines present nor are there the signs of cleaning around the stars in the protected areas. The more open field areas are light because of actual handling, nothing more. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:14 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Harshly cleaned.. gently cleaned makes no difference its still cleaned.

You really don’t know squat in this field, do you? Have you EVER taken a grading course? Have you ever attended the ANA Summer Seminar? Do you have any numismatic awards? There is no “fully graded” or “less than fully graded” that exists. Stop it, Mike! You’re embarrassing yourself. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:17 AM, VKurtB said:

You really don’t know squat in this field, do you?

Yhea.. you got me You parrot what I post then challenge my opinions...you sir are a baffoon

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:20 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Yhea.. you got me You parrot what I post then challenge my opinions...you sir are a baffoon

See above. What a useless waste of space you are. 

[Mike Meenderink]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:33 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Better ...but..This one has been previously cleaned and retoned. Most likely in an album (from the organic brown staining) My guess is it was harshly cleaned in the 50s collectors craze then booked in an album where it re toned like this. Then it was broken from an estate set years ago. My grade and evaluation is XF DETAILS CLEANED 

 

On 8/3/2023 at 7:36 AM, VKurtB said:

When and how it was cleaned is the important factor, not a binary yes/no decision. If this was cleaned, is was gently and a long time ago. What IS obvious from studying this coin is that it spent a virtual eternity in an old style album. That’s what accounts for the toning pattern. There are no cleaning hairlines present nor are there the signs of cleaning around the stars in the protected areas. The more open field areas are light because of actual handling, nothing more. 

If you need anymore help let me know ...bahaha

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:17 AM, VKurtB said:

You really don’t know squat in this field, do you? Have you EVER taken a grading course? Have you ever attended the ANA Summer Seminar? Do you have any numismatic awards? There is no “fully graded” or “less than fully graded” that exists. Stop it, Mike! You’re embarrassing yourself. 

Yes Mr KNOW IT ALL a coin can be graded 1. GENUINE  2. ADJECTIVAL (no sheldon number) or FULLY GRADED With Sheldon scale specific numerical grade. PLease STFU

[Mike Meenderink]

Anything else you would like to teach me Kurt?

[Mike Meenderink]

That's what I thought....(crickets sing softly in the silent morning air) 

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:36 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Anything else you would like to teach me Kurt?

Why yes. You are a m-o-r-o-n. All of those types of grading are at the decision of the grader, and are NOT A DECISION open to a collector. There is only one type of SUBMISSION (except for promotional items) available to collectors. There is no lower tier for “GENUINE” or “ADJECTIVAL” that a collector can select. The ONLY type available to the collector is the full Sheldon Scale grade. I’ll wait here for you to show me where I can select anything of the kind on an NGC form. 

It is YOU, sir, who needs to “STFU”.

Edited August 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Mike Meenderink]

Hey smartguy try using a dealer that can bulk submit your coin or coins. Then you can do ALL of that. Dingleberry

On 8/3/2023 at 8:53 AM, VKurtB said:

Why yes. You are a m-o-r-o-n. All of those types of grading are at the decision of the grader, and are NOT A DECISION open to a collector. There is only one type of SUBMISSION (except for promotional items) available to collectors. There is no lower tier for “GENUINE” or “ADJECTIVAL” that a collector can select. The ONLY type available to the collector is the full Sheldon Scale grade. I’ll wait here for you to show me where I can select anything of the kind on an NGC form. 

 

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:31 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Yes Mr KNOW IT ALL a coin can be graded 1. GENUINE  2. ADJECTIVAL (no sheldon number) or FULLY GRADED With Sheldon scale specific numerical grade. PLease STFU

The ADJECTIVAL are promotional items only available to large firms. GENUINE is given to badly damaged coins that are ungradable. . 

Edited August 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:56 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Hey smartguy try using a dealer that can bulk submit your coin or coins. Then you can do ALL of that. Dingleberry

 

Bulk submit 1828 bust halves? BWA-HA-HA-HA!