Those interested in Eagles and Double Eagles might look at the Fairmont Collection auction 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:14 PM, zadok said:

...u should refrain from referencing his name, im positive he would find it repulsive...u made his last few months miserable, so much so he left the forum which im certain he received enjoyment from until he didnt...try to find some respect n quit coat-tailing on his good name...for that matter u can do the same in regard to referencing my name in ur frivolous ramblings...take this as a formal request....

If the decedent has any objection to my attributing a quote to him, he will let me know.  As for you, you are free to ignore me. Problem solved. Oldhoop was free to ignore me as well, but, big BUT, adamantly and very publicly refused to do so!  Then he blundered thereby committing irreversible error:  he demanded a retraction from a figment of my imagination: Ricky the talking Rooster!  An exchange of conversation with an inanimate emoji with a personality all its own is always risky.  That vulnerability to embarrassment proved to be too much for a member who framed his comments egocentrically, not with "I," like a commoner, but "We."  It is difficult to disagree with he who assumes the position of speaker for all. He left, not for the lame reason you cite, but because like any worthy opponent, he had met his match and was apparently in failing health.  I learned of his untimely demise from another member shortly after my departure. You are not privy to the private communications I had had with him as well as a communique I had received from the Website Coordinator. Only days ago, I received a cordial response from a consummate gentleman and professional member, M Feld. I cannot fathom why you go out of your way to repeatedly stalk me, but I defend your constitutional right to play with fire.  I find you to be ill-mannered, a braggart, and given to making generalized comments which are impossible to confirm or deny. If casting stones at me elevates your standing and the quality of your life in Sleepy Hollow, by all means continue to do so. You would do well to drop the pretense of being incapable of expressing your thoughts clearly and completely by adhering to standard English writing style replete with capital letters, paragraphs, and final periods, as appropriate. The renowned poet, e. e. cummings, you are not.  If the big words I use are too big, perhaps, for you, look them up.  Save that hooey for the guys with the higher numbers. 

My apologies to the OP.  I feel, at the very least the characterization by a fellow member of a substantive contributions you make, dismissively with an epithet on a public forum viewed by millions, to be bad form.  The upstart has gotten a taste of his own medicine and not surprisingly, decided he didn't like it.  Karma triumphs again.

Edited February 15 by Henri Charriere
Extensive die polishing.

[zadok]

On 2/8/2024 at 7:43 AM, Henri Charriere said:

If the decedent has any objection to my attributing a quote to him, he will let me know.  As for you, you are free to ignore me. Problem solved. Oldhoop was free to ignore me as well, but, big BUT, adamantly and very publicly refused to do so!  Then he blundered thereby committing irreversible error:  he demanded a retraction from Ricky the talking Rooster!  An exchange of conversation with a talking rooster with a mind of its own is always risky.  That vulnerability proved to be too much for a member who framed his comments egocentrically, not with "I," like a commoner, but "We."  It is difficult to disagree with he who assumes the position of speaker for all. He left, not for the lame reason you cite, but because like any worthy opponent, he had met his match and was apparently in failing health.  I learned of his untimely demise from another member shortly after my departure. You are not privy to the private communications I had had with him as well as a communique I received from the Website Coordinator. Only days ago, I received a cordial response from a consummate gentleman and professional member, M Feld. I have no explanation as to why you go out of your way to repeatedly stalk me, but I defend your constitutional right to play with fire.  I find you to be ill-mannered and a braggart given to making generalized comments which are impossible to confirm or deny. If casting stones at me elevates your standing and the quality of your life in Sleepy Hollow, by all means do so. You would do well to drop the pretense of being incapable of expressing your thoughts clearly and completely adhering to standard English writing replete with capital letters, paragraphs, and final periods, as appropriate.  e. e. cummings you are not.  Are the big words I use too big, perhaps, for you?  Save that hooey for the guys with the higher numbers. 

My apologies to the OP.  I feel, at the very least characterizing any contribution you make dismissively with an epithet on a public forum viewed by millions, to be bad form.  The upstart has gotten a taste of his own medicine (Absolute Lie) and not surprisingly, decided he didn't like it.  Karma triumphs again.

...classic textbook  DSM-5 example...sad....

[RWB]

On 2/4/2024 at 5:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm sure SB would have wanted proof and got it if it was just one huge hoard or several large ones

Why? They just copy what is on the slab label and the promoter's advertising articles.

[Henri Charriere]

As regarding the '26 Eagle PCGS MS-65.  If I am not mistaken, this was the same grade bestowed by the same TPGS upon that unique '33 Double-Eagle.

My selling point would be the damage to the former was inflicted by none other than the notorious hatchet-bearing Chinese Tong legend, Mock Duck, at the height of his rambuntious reign in New York's Chinatown.  We're it not for the coin which deflected what surely would have been a mortal blow, it would have remained unnoticed in the opposing gang member's breast pocket.

Out of respect for the owner of the latter, I will not comment on the damage his coin sustained in the turmoil of the Middle East.

Me thinketh MS-65 is undeservedly high, more so in the case of the '26 Eagle.  If the blow had fallen on a comparatively inconspicuous location, that would be different.  But prominently on the face of the figure portrayed is not something that can be so easily overlooked.  It is the existence of examples so graded that makes my confidence in graders falter.  The OP's choice of coin to illustrate the point he wished to make was a fine one.

Edited February 11 by Henri Charriere
Correct misspelling

[USAuPzlBxBob]

"Forget it, Jake.  It's Chinatown."

Enjoy your Super Bowl Sunday morning.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/10/2024 at 1:41 PM, RWB said:

Why? They just copy what is on the slab label and the promoter's advertising articles.

You would think so many different actors are involved that SOMEONE...at SOME TIME....would talk.  But clearly not the case, as the Fairmont is almost certainly multiple hoards or acculations, unlike maybe the 1908 No Motto Wells hoard which could be all from one source or person.

I guess among the sellers of these hoards all they care about is getting paid. 

[zadok]

On 2/11/2024 at 4:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You would think so many different actors are involved that SOMEONE...at SOME TIME....would talk.  But clearly not the case, as the Fairmont is almost certainly multiple hoards or acculations, unlike maybe the 1908 No Motto Wells hoard which could be all from one source or person.

I guess among the sellers of these hoards all they care about is getting paid. 

...hoards n accumulations a collection they do not make....

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/11/2024 at 4:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You would think so many different actors are involved that SOMEONE...at SOME TIME....would talk....

History is tentative pending new discoveries, declassification of documents, the persistence of one man who insisted Troy actually existed, treachery, even deathbed confessions.  It may not happen during your lifetime but I like to believe truth stamped into the ground shall rise again and be revealed. Not every mystery is solved.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:52 PM, Henri Charriere said:

History is tentative pending new discoveries, declassification of documents, the persistence of one man who insisted Troy actually existed, treachery, even deathbed confessions.  It may not happen during your lifetime but I like to believe truth stamped into the ground shall rise again and be revealed. Not every mystery is solved.

Wouldn't it be interesting to know -- and I am sure it wasn't on Paul Wittlin's Priority List -- to know where all those coins in French and Swiss banks came from ?  

If it came from rural vs. city folks.....wealthy individuals vs. peasants.....low-income vs. middle-income....and maybe which countries (we know which banks but that doesn't necessarily correlate to the depositors).

I agree with Zadok that this isn't critical to our hobby....but as one of my passions is learning and reading about original sources....I wish we had more info on who these people were who made the original SDB deposits.  I found the otherwise "boring" and "common" 1924 Saint fascinating while reading up on it because the American-German Dawes Plan -- which I have read about for 50+ years...was key to the use of that particular DE.  How many times did I read in my grade school textbooks about the Dawes Plan and 1924...never knowing that the 1924 Saint DE was the coin of the realm to facilitate that trade deal?

Come to think of it....I sort of wonder why the European banks wanted bags of Double Eagles and other gold coins....as RWB has said, the bars were easier to move.....but why have unwieldly DEs when it was so much easier to settle a trade with digital credits and debits, right ?  If the Central Bank of your country is accepting gold and wants bonds that you have in your capital account....wouldn't a credit be easier to move around ?

Edited February 15 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

The following comment is said in jest and is completely fictitious...

Get your head out of that upstate New York muck!  You mean to tell me you aren't even aware they came out with a hard-covered coffee table book in a limited edition with lavish illustrations and never before seen, rare, archival footage accompanying the text of "The Centennial of the Dawes Plan," which was released late last year in time for commemorating the anniversary?

All the questions you have -- and ones you've never thought of, are answered there...  Okay, Full Stop!

As much as you may wish that were true, it isn't.  Was the German zeppelin, the Hindenburg sabotaged, or was the culprit St. Elmo's Fire?  Did Lee Harvey act alone?  Where's Jimmy Hoffa?....

Some mysteries endure.  You've got the mystery of the Double Eagles and I've got 100 million missing 20-Franc gold roosters -- primarily the earlier half of the series.  A lot of the answers to our questions lie undisturbed in government archives.

To answer your opening line, yes, it would be interesting.  Whether answers will be forthcoming remains to be seen. In the meantime, we each of us search for answers to things that  have always been in the back of our minds.  

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting post ATS that caught my attention by someone who said they had family members from Venezuela and employed in their national oil company, PDVSA.  He says that the Fairmont Collection/Hoard is from Venezuela...from high-ranking PDVSA and government elites cashing out after Hugo Chavez died.

No hard proof offered -- but I see Venezuela as a very plausible source for the Fairmont Hoard:

• It's a huge hoard, not likely one accumulated by an individual (even a wealthy one).  Over 9 tons potentially.  More likely to be the kind of stash a small country acquires
• Venezuela has been an autocratic, kleptocratic country ever since WW II.  I could see siphoning off of government funds for personal use by the #1 man and a few of his loyal underlings.
• PDVSA, the Venezuelan national oil company, has (until recently) been a prodigious cash generator, the kind that could be easily looted by a dictator and his henchman over the decades.  Forget about the 1940's and 1950's and later....in Brazil, we had Petrobras looted only 20 years ago and used brazenly by political elites.  And Brazil has a somewhat healthy 2-party system; Venezuela hasn't had that in ages, if ever.
• Central Bank and other banks (if solvent) easily controlled by the government/dictator without any laws on private property rights, an independent judiciary, etc....to protect them.

Other hoards -- from a few dozen coins to the 1983 MTB El Salvador Hoard -- trace their origins to countries in South and Central America with similar stories to Venezuela.  But except for Mexico, none have a company like PDVSA that generates lots of $$$ and could be easily looted by corrupt government or oil executive higher-ups.

Let's see if more develops on this story. 

Edited February 16 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting post ATS that caught my attention by someone who said they had family members from Venezuela and employed in their national oil company, PDVSA.  He says that the Fairmont Collection/Hoard is from Venezuela...from high-ranking PDVSA and government elites cashing out after Hugo Chavez died.

No hard proof offered -- but I see Venezuela as a very plausible source for the Fairmont Hoard:

• It's a huge hoard, not likely one accumulated by an individual (even a wealthy one).  Over 9 tons potentially.  More likely to be the kind of stash a small country acquires
• Venezuela has been an autocratic, kleptocratic country ever since WW II.  I could see siphoning off of government funds for personal use by the #1 man and a few of his loyal underlings.
• PDVSA, the Venezuelan national oil company, has (until recently) been a prodigious cash generator, the kind that could be easily looted by a dictator and his henchman over the decades.  Forget about the 1940's and 1950's and later....in Brazil, we had Petrobras looted only 20 years ago and used brazenly by political elites.  And Brazil has a somewhat healthy 2-party system; Venezuela hasn't had that in ages, if ever.
• Central Bank and other banks (if solvent) easily controlled by the government/dictator without any laws on private property rights, an independent judiciary, etc....to protect them.

Other hoards -- from a few dozen coins to the 1983 MTB El Salvador Hoard -- trace their origins to countries in South and Central America with similar stories to Venezuela.  But except for Mexico, none have a company like PDVSA that generates lots of $$$ and could be easily looted by corrupt government or oil executive higher-ups.

Let's see if more develops on this story. 

...dont hold ur breath, im betting not...plus operative words "he said"....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:25 PM, zadok said:

...dont hold ur breath, im betting not...plus operative words "he said"....

Note I said..."plausible"....not proved or even probable. 

Right now, South/Central America is most likely and the countries most likely are Mexico (oil), Venezuela (oil), Brazil (oil), and Chile (Pinochet) which had the cash and economic prowess to accumulate gold in any quantity. 

PDVSA is a cash cow which has been decimated by Marxists and Socialists...totally plundered, worse than if John D. Rockefeller had controlled it and tried to screw ordinary Venezuelans.

PDVSA produces about 1 MM bl/day of oil.  Should be closer to 6 MM/bl. day.  They have lost $1 trillion the last decade because of Chavez and Maduro.  Unreal.....

 

[zadok]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:34 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Note I said..."plausible"....not proved or even probable. 

Right now, South/Central America is most likely and the countries most likely are Mexico (oil), Venezuela (oil), Brazil (oil), and Chile (Pinochet) which had the cash and economic prowess to accumulate gold in any quantity. 

PDVSA is a cash cow which has been decimated by Marxists and Socialists...totally plundered, worse than if John D. Rockefeller had controlled it and tried to screw ordinary Venezuelans.

PDVSA produces about 1 MM bl/day of oil.  Should be closer to 6 MM/bl. day.  They have lost $1 trillion the last decade because of Chavez and Maduro.  Unreal.....

 

...dont forget to breathe thru that straw u r clutching....

[dragon]

<<<  In my opinion (others will disagree) almost all of the coins are overgraded. Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65." You can decide if a common date Eagle of that grade should have deep cuts and bumps in prominent visual areas -- or, in fact, anywhere.  >>>

 

 

I agree with RWB 110%.   From the small sampling of coins from this collection I've seen online and 1 or 2 in person, I felt they were pretty much all extremely liberally graded by at least 1 full point if not more.   

 

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/23/2024 at 8:28 PM, dragon said:

<<<  In my opinion (others will disagree) almost all of the coins are overgraded. Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65." You can decide if a common date Eagle of that grade should have deep cuts and bumps in prominent visual areas -- or, in fact, anywhere.  >>>

I agree with RWB 110%.   From the small sampling of coins from this collection I've seen online and 1 or 2 in person, I felt they were pretty much all extremely liberally graded by at least 1 full point if not more.   

I hope I don't offend anybody, but no one in their right mind (or a hidden agenda) would disagree with you.  I don't because I am unable to in the face of overwhelming graphic evidence. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/23/2024 at 8:28 PM, dragon said:

<<<  In my opinion (others will disagree) almost all of the coins are overgraded. Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65." You can decide if a common date Eagle of that grade should have deep cuts and bumps in prominent visual areas -- or, in fact, anywhere.  >>>  I agree with RWB 110%.   From the small sampling of coins from this collection I've seen online and 1 or 2 in person, I felt they were pretty much all extremely liberally graded by at least 1 full point if not more.   

No pics showed up.  Would like to see a Double Eagle -- or Eagle -- you say is overgraded.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/23/2024 at 8:28 PM, dragon said:

<<<  In my opinion (others will disagree) almost all of the coins are overgraded. Here's an example that is supposed top be "MS-65." You can decide if a common date Eagle of that grade should have deep cuts and bumps in prominent visual areas -- or, in fact, anywhere.  >>>  I agree with RWB 110%.   From the small sampling of coins from this collection I've seen online and 1 or 2 in person, I felt they were pretty much all extremely liberally graded by at least 1 full point if not more.   

Is this a PCGS production only, or joint with NGC ?

You're more likely to see liberally graded Liberty Head DEs over Saint-Gaudens DEs, IMO....especially for the dates with scarcity.

[GoldFinger1969]

I see that Gov.mint is now offering coins from the Fairmont Collection; video here too:

https://www.govmint.com/reserveplus?ad=987PM&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5IGG2azbhQMV2FtHAR1ZqwIEEAAYASAAEgLyWvD_BwE

$5 and $10 gold pieces; the Eagle sells for just over $2,500 for a 1907P.  Not sure if that is high relative to the market for 1/2 ounce of gold for the final issue of the Liberty Head design.

I also saw a TV commercial for the Fairmont coins yesterday, but missed who sponsored it; could have been Gov.mint or another firm.

Edited April 25 by GoldFinger1969