halves fbl graded Full Bell Lines?? 1 1

[CPSncal]

Seems a large number of graded Franklin Half Dollars designated Full 
Bell Lines by independent coin grading services are questionable as to clearly having distinct Lines.

[CPSncal]

Are the bell lines above the first set at bottom of bell included in the determination of fbl??

[Coinbuf]

Both NGC and PCGS have section of their websites that discuss and define what is or is not a full bell line for Franklin Half dollars.   Having said that, it is not difficult to find examples in both holder brands that may not fully meet the definitions as they are written by each service.   Grading is not a pure science, there is some level of subjectivity to it and designations like FBL, FH, FB and more are not immune to this subjectivity any more than grades are.   If you are looking at TPG's other than these two, well all bets are off.

NGC definition

PCGS definition

Edited June 5, 2023 by Coinbuf

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/5/2023 at 5:51 PM, CPSncal said:

Seems a large number of graded Franklin Half Dollars designated Full 
Bell Lines by independent coin grading services are questionable as to clearly having distinct Lines.

Check out the (in)famous thread ATS on Franklin Gradeflation.  Classic and must-reading even if someone has no interest in Franklin's at all. 

[powermad5000]

As I am building a full set of Franklin Halves in minimum MS 64 FBL (from almost all raw purchases and nearing 80% there), from all the submissions I have made, the top three lines absolutely must be fully separated (even if they are weak from say a weak strike or the very slightest of wear as long as they are separated). The top two lines at the bottom have to be full and separate. It is the actual bottom of the bell that I have had some submissions where the absolute bottom is "ragged" but still separated from the two lines above it, and I have gotten the FBL designation. I do know any ding or hit that causes a disturbance in any of the lines (basically spanning across any two lines) almost certainly will disqualify the FBL designation. I do agree that the S Franklins are the hardest to get FBL on.

[CPSncal]

On 6/5/2023 at 3:19 PM, Coinbuf said:

Both NGC and PCGS have section of their websites that discuss and define what is or is not a full bell line for Franklin Half dollars.   Having said that, it is not difficult to find examples in both holder brands that may not fully meet the definitions as they are written by each service.   Grading is not a pure science, there is some level of subjectivity to it and designations like FBL, FH, FB and more are not immune to this subjectivity any more than grades are.   If you are looking at TPG's other than these two, well all bets are off.

NGC definition

PCGS definition

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it.  2 years ago I knew nothing about tpg's. I'm not in the business and knew nothing about NGC or PCGS, or others. Also knew nothing about numismatics. I always just thought grading issues were very rare. I figured coins sent for regrading almost never were given higher grades. Especially by the top two tpg's...in the world! I find it rather disturbing that these two 'independent', apparently well respected firms, are not in agreement about what defines fbl's. I do understand why subjectivity when it comes to overall Grade. Just not what should be apparent. In other words,  Not in whether three distinct lines exist on the Half Dollar or not. Especially when the difference in value can potentially be thousands of dollars. It is Very disturbing. Disappointing. People are being duped.

Thanks again!

[ldhair]

There are many collectors that don't care about bell lines and just build sets of nice looking coins. Trying to build a set of just FBLs is a money pit.

[Sandon]

   I've never been keen on so-called "strike rarities" based on single characteristics, whether they be full bell lines, full heads, full bands, or full steps. Coins with these characteristics are not always fully struck in other areas and may not be attractive overall.  The blame is really with collectors who refuse to develop their own knowledge, judgment and taste and instead base their purchases on what is written on a grading service tag rather than on their own evaluation of the coin in the holder. They have ceded their own judgment to grading services that use the terminology of the ANA grading standards but do not consistently adhere to them.

   Shown below is a 1953-S Franklin half dollar graded MS 65 by PCGS. The coin is brilliant and frosty, generally well-struck and attractive, and the bell lines show weakly in some areas but mostly all the way across. A dealer sold it a few years ago for $45. The 1953-S is considered to be the rarest issue with "full bell lines". If the coin were just a bit stronger on the bell lines and had "FBL" on the holder, there are collectors who would pay $25,000 for it! In what world does this make sense?

Edited June 6, 2023 by Sandon
add missing word

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:47 AM, CPSncal said:

Especially when the difference in value can potentially be thousands of dollars. It is Very disturbing. Disappointing. People are being duped.  

It's not so much being duped, but when you are subject to human factors including human error, then things like that can happen.  As I stated above, that was the focus of the Franklin Gradeflation Thread over ATS.  Guy owns Franklin Halfs....tries for an upgrade several times....can't get it....sells his coin for like $500....then sees it 1 1/2 grades higher (sometimes with CAC) and it's worth $10,000 or more. 

Happens all the time in varying degrees to various items we own or use in everyday life.  NVDA stock was $115 late last year...now it's almost 4x that amount.  Got a quote for my 2020 Honda CR-V that was $4,000 better than that given by a dealer who wanted my business.

[VKurtB]

On 6/6/2023 at 2:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's not so much being duped, but when you are subject to human factors including human error, then things like that can happen.  As I stated above, that was the focus of the Franklin Gradeflation Thread over ATS.  Guy owns Franklin Halfs....tries for an upgrade several times....can't get it....sells his coin for like $500....then sees it 1 1/2 grades higher (sometimes with CAC) and it's worth $10,000 or more. 

Happens all the time in varying degrees to various items we own or use in everyday life.  NVDA stock was $115 late last year...now it's almost 4x that amount.  Got a quote for my 2020 Honda CR-V that was $4,000 better than that given by a dealer who wanted my business.

"The heart wants what the heart wants."

[powermad5000]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:36 AM, ldhair said:

Trying to build a set of just FBLs is a money pit.

Depends on how high of a grade to go along with the FBL is (I am trying for all MS 64 FBL as once you step up to 65 or 66 the prices tend to get quite high very quickly), and also depends on how you are acquiring the coins. I will state one example of one in my set. I bought a raw 1959 Franklin from a coin show for $12. I had it slabbed. It returned as MS 65 FBL.  I am basically building the set from all raw coins and have acquired most of them very cheaply.

[CPSncal]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:20 PM, powermad5000 said:

Depends on how high of a grade to go along with the FBL is (I am trying for all MS 64 FBL as once you step up to 65 or 66 the prices tend to get quite high very quickly), and also depends on how you are acquiring the coins. I will state one example of one in my set. I bought a raw 1959 Franklin from a coin show for $12. I had it slabbed. It returned as MS 65 FBL.  I am basically building the set from all raw coins and have acquired most of them very cheaply.

Thank you for posting! The hobby lives on and it's a good thing!

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/6/2023 at 12:22 PM, Sandon said:

Shown below is a 1953-S Franklin half dollar graded MS 65 by PCGS. The coin is brilliant and frosty, generally well-struck and attractive, and the bell lines show weakly in some areas but mostly all the way across. A dealer sold it a few years ago for $45. The 1953-S is considered to be the rarest issue with "full bell lines". If the coin were just a bit stronger on the bell lines and had "FBL" on the holder, there are collectors who would pay $25,000 for it! In what world does this make sense?

That's what the Franklin Gradeflation thread was all about.  And collectors REPEATEDLY submitted and couldn't get the upgrade(s)....then someone (connected ?) managed to get it (and sometimes CAC, too). 

Does illuminate the area of weakness that Roger harps on.

[VKurtB]

On 6/11/2023 at 11:50 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's what the Franklin Gradeflation thread was all about.  And collectors REPEATEDLY submitted and couldn't get the upgrade(s)....then someone (connected ?) managed to get it (and sometimes CAC, too). 

Does illuminate the area of weakness that Roger harps on.

What do you suppose the total population is of people who grade high end Franklins at the two top (perhaps soon to be three) grading firms? I ask because I do not know, but I'll bet it's a considerable number. Opinions differ.

[Mike Meenderink]

Franklins are becoming a hot collector coin on the market. Like high end Lincoln Wheat BU Gems Franklins have been noticed by younger "newer" collectors seeking holding coins for future value. The general easy availability of these coins in low grade to high BU MS grade examples make the market the wild west when it comes to acquiring these coins. Grading attempts of FBL coins (which are not always successful) has increased overall non FBL grading totals at both NGC and PCGS for Franklin Half dollars. This lowers the value of non FBL coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:42 PM, VKurtB said:

What do you suppose the total population is of people who grade high end Franklins at the two top (perhaps soon to be three) grading firms? I ask because I do not know, but I'll bet it's a considerable number. Opinions differ.

Absolutely.  But if I recall, the OP of the thread submitted the coins A FEW TIMES to PCGS and didn't get a single incremental upgrade....then after selling it for ~ $500, the coin magically "grows" FBL and the grade goes up 1 1/2 points (w or w/out CAC) and is now worth $10,000 or whatnot.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:37 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Franklins are becoming a hot collector coin on the market. 

I wasn't aware of that, my understanding was that they tracked the overall PCGS 3000 Index DOWN from about 2010-20.  Big declines in many of the semi-trophy coins.   I believe 75% declines from the 2010 peaks was not uncommon for some of the higher-graded, higher-priced coins.  Clearly, these didn't resist on the downside when the market reversed.

On 6/13/2023 at 6:37 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Like high end Lincoln Wheat BU Gems Franklins have been noticed by younger "newer" collectors seeking holding coins for future value. The general easy availability of these coins in low grade to high BU MS grade examples make the market the wild west when it comes to acquiring these coins. Grading attempts of FBL coins (which are not always successful) has increased overall non FBL grading totals at both NGC and PCGS for Franklin Half dollars. This lowers the value of non FBL coins.

I'm surprised younger collectors are gravitating towards those coins instead of Morgans or maybe even though a bigger commitment Eagles or Double Eagles.  I guess the fact that their parents or grandparents may have given them the coins when younger might account for some of the interest.

I do think that the "general easy availability" of the coins is going to collide with any future increasing values for the coins.

I know WC has some strong opinions on small currency legal tender coins like these being able to appreciate given their limited (domestic) investor/collector base.

Edited June 14, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Mike Meenderink]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wasn't aware of that, my understanding was that they tracked the overall PCGS 3000 Index DOWN from about 2010-20.  Big declines in many of the semi-trophy coins.   I believe 75% declines from the 2010 peaks was not uncommon for some of the higher-graded, higher-priced coins.  Clearly, these didn't resist on the downside when the market reversed.

I'm surprised younger collectors are gravitating towards those coins instead of Morgans or maybe even though a bigger commitment Eagles or Double Eagles.  I guess the fact that their parents or grandparents may have given them the coins when younger might account for some of the interest.

I do think that the "general easy availability" of the coins is going to collide with any future increasing values for the coins.

I know WC has some strong opinions on small currency legal tender coins like these being able to appreciate given their limited (domestic) investor/collector base.

Im seeing sales every week on Ebay and other coin sales sites with strong interest in Franklins. The availability of raw coins has increased IMO due to certain collections and hoards being liquidated recently due to the renewed collector interest. Thus driving a higher raw value for the coin beyond melt. As the grading totals increase the supposed higher end "FBL" (which I don't really care about since most of these coins were struck without them) coins are ostracizing the other thousands of mint state Franklins already graded without FBL designation.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/15/2023 at 12:02 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Im seeing sales every week on Ebay and other coin sales sites with strong interest in Franklins. The availability of raw coins has increased IMO due to certain collections and hoards being liquidated recently due to the renewed collector interest. Thus driving a higher raw value for the coin beyond melt. As the grading totals increase the supposed higher end "FBL" (which I don't really care about since most of these coins were struck without them) coins are ostracizing the other thousands of mint state Franklins already graded without FBL designation.

So these raw ungradeds are being sold...interesting.  I guess the grades, if any, don't matter to today's collectors.  Hopefully, fakes aren't also being sold in the mix.