Filipinas coins. 2 2

[ldhair]

I don't do much with foreign coins but these are a bit cool to me. Having USA on them caught my interest. Feel free to post your images.

 

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2023 at 8:01 AM, ldhair said:

I don't do much with foreign coins but these are a bit cool to me. Having USA on them caught my interest. Feel free to post your images.

 

Yup, they ARE cool, very cool. And those D and S mint marks mean what they mean on U.S. coins. If you have one of the now out of print World Catalogs, the Philippines pages are a mini-history all their own.  

[Henri Charriere]

Unasked honest question:  Any correlation between the minting of coins for foreign countries and the discovery of U.S. coins struck on foreign planchet?  So-called errors?  I know that both Hawaii and Puerto Rico had their own coinage, but what was being used in the Phillipines or, for that matter, in U.S. territorial acquisitions like Alaska after it was bought and before it became a state?

[RWB]

On 5/31/2023 at 2:46 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Any correlation between the minting of coins for foreign countries and the discovery of U.S. coins struck on foreign planchet?  So-called errors?  I know that both Hawaii and Puerto Rico had their own coinage, but what was being used in the Phillipines or, for that matter, in U.S. territorial acquisitions like Alaska after it was bought and before it became a state?

The "unanswered question" (per Charles Ives)....

Anytime more than one denomination was in simultaneous production there was a chance a blank or planchet might get stuck in equipment, or get picked off the floor and tossed into the wrong bin. The Philippines used coinage issued by Spain which was replaced with US-struck Philippine coins (much like the OP's photos). Alaska was too sparsely populated for its own coins and had never been an independent state like Hawa'ii. (They'd contracted coinage from US Mints. After takeover by the US as much of this old coinage was recycled into ordinary bullion.) The main currency were US gold and paper, plus barter goods.

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2023 at 3:56 PM, RWB said:

The "unanswered question" (per Charles Ives)....

Anytime more than one denomination was in simultaneous production there was a chance a blank or planchet might get stuck in equipment, or get picked off the floor and tossed into the wrong bin. The Philippines used coinage issued by Spain which was replaced with US-struck Philippine coins (much like the OP's photos). Alaska was too sparsely populated for its own coins and had never been an independent state like Hawa'ii. (They'd contracted coinage from US Mints. After takeover by the US as much of this old coinage was recycled into ordinary bullion.) The main currency were US gold and paper, plus barter goods.

Beaver pelts. 

[The 12th Denticle]

What I find very cool and interesting about these coins (and the others in the series) is that they are bi-national: The obverse design conveyed that it was a coin of the Philippine Islands, while the reverse was designed to indicate the sovereignty of the United States.  

The one centavo coin in the OPs photos has a different “coat of arms” on the reverse than the 10 and 50 centavo coins because it was minted during the Insular government period whereas the latter coins were produced during the Commonwealth period.

Here’s a one peso coin. This one was struck at the Philadelphia Mint and placed into circulation on July 1903. It has the same technical specs as the Morgan dollar, but exclusively made for use at the Philippine Islands.

You can read more cool facts about these US-Philippine (USPI) coins in my custom registry set, “1 Peso Coins of The Philippines (1897-1977)” here: 

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=32398

Scroll about halfway down on the set’s page till you see “American Territory Peso Coins.”

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/31/2023 at 4:56 PM, RWB said:

The "unanswered question" (per Charles Ives)....

Anytime more than one denomination was in simultaneous production there was a chance a blank or planchet might get stuck in equipment, or get picked off the floor and tossed into the wrong bin. The Philippines used coinage issued by Spain which was replaced with US-struck Philippine coins (much like the OP's photos). Alaska was too sparsely populated for its own coins and had never been an independent state like Hawa'ii. (They'd contracted coinage from US Mints. After takeover by the US as much of this old coinage was recycled into ordinary bullion.) The main currency were US gold and paper, plus barter goods.

Your reply prompted me to dig further. I was aware SOS William Seward purchased Alaska from the Russian Empire in 1867 for $7.2 B, it had been a "Russian colony" from 1744-1867, which begs the question, Were any Russian coins ever used there? I'll have to consult Alex from Anchorage.  🤣

[For the record, Hawai'i, pronounced ha-wa-YEE, sharing that idiosyncracy with Sana'a, the capital of Yemen, pronounced suh-nah-UH... ]

I have never seen Filipinas coins in so fine a condition as to notice the anomaly of the absence of formal denticles on the obverse sides of denominations greater than one centavo. 

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

 

Very lovely examples. 

[RWB]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:59 PM, The 12th Denticle said:

It has the same technical specs as the Morgan dollar, but exclusively made for use at the Philippine Islands.

It was also valued at 50-cents, which created a problem when compared to a standard silver dollar. By buying 1-peso Philippine coins, a merchant would get twice the silver for a dollar.

PS: There's a lot of detailed info on the 1904 Philippine coins in NARA RG104 E-229 Boxes 207-224. Available for free access at

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/archivedetail/527901

Edited June 1, 2023 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 6/1/2023 at 11:35 AM, RWB said:

It was also valued at 50-cents, which created a problem when compared to a standard silver dollar. By buying 1-peso Philippine coins, a merchant would get twice the silver for a dollar.

PS: There's a lot of detailed info on the 1904 Philippine coins in NARA RG104 E-229 Boxes 207-224. Available for free access at

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/archivedetail/527901

Are you still using that overhead camera copy stand looking device to scan these?

[Henri Charriere]

I am sure Herman McNeil upon seeing these was emboldened by their risqué rendition inspiring him to test-drive his own interpretation of a goddess on the Liberty Standing Quarter which understandably upset a few folks a century ago.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Correct misspelling.

[The 12th Denticle]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:35 PM, RWB said:

It was also valued at 50-cents, which created a problem when compared to a standard silver dollar. By buying 1-peso Philippine coins, a merchant would get twice the silver for a dollar.

 

Indeed, that 1/2 to 1 ratio was a problem. One could have made a profit this way, and a few probably did, but I don’t think it became a large scale problem in the Philippines until April 1905, when the price of silver began to rise rapidly. Now it was really profitable to sell the coins and melt them. People began hoarding and exporting these silver coins to places like Hong Kong, prompting the government to intervene.

Laws were passed that made it illegal to export Philippine peso coins, but this was just a temporary way of dealing with the problem. The ultimate solution was re-coinage.

I have information about the peso re-coining in a couple of my owner’s comment pages, for those interested in further reading:

1906-S Peso

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=754996

1907-S Peso

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=754997

[The 12th Denticle]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:35 PM, RWB said:

PS: There's a lot of detailed info on the 1904 Philippine coins in NARA RG104 E-229 Boxes 207-224. Available for free access at

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/archivedetail/527901

Thank you for the information, and for providing the document scans. I would love to read more on this topic, especially anything abailable on the re-coinage (shipments, correspondemce, etc.)

[RWB]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:18 PM, The 12th Denticle said:

Thank you for the information, and for providing the document scans. I would love to read more on this topic, especially anything abailable on the re-coinage (shipments, correspondemce, etc.)

The 1904 recoinage is, I think, confined to Spanish silver. But, as we gradually work into 1905 and later years, I'm sure more info will turn up. (FYI - it takes about 1 work day to scan and clean-up images from one box, IF we skip all the small assay office files and personnel reports (except defalcation, etc. It can easily cost several hundred dollars per box to do this.)

Edited June 1, 2023 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:12 PM, RWB said:

The 1904 recoinage is, I think, confined to Spanish silver. But, as we gradually work into 1905 and later years, I'm sure more info will turn up. (FYI - it takes about 1 work day to scan and clean-up images from one box, IF we skip all the small assay office files and personnel reports (except defalcation, etc. It can easily cost several hundred dollars per box to do this.)

“clean-up” : curves? color? contrast? not pixel level work?

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/1/2023 at 8:01 PM, VKurtB said:

“clean-up” : curves? color? contrast? not pixel level work?

 BEGGING THE O.P.'s INDULGENCE (MINDFUL OF YOUR ADVISORY TO SAFM...)

I'VE BEEN WATCHING THESE EXCHANGES--SOME IN RE-RUNS--FOR YEARS AND I STILL DON'T GET IT.  MEMBERS HAVE WEIGHED IN FROM TIME TO TIME, YOURSELF INCLUDED, BUT TO NO AVAIL. NOW A CRITICAL SOMEWHAT PIVOTAL EXCHANGE WAS REMOVED AND I AM BEGINNING TO FEEL THIS IS SANCTIONED SPONSORED ENTERTAINMENT LIKE BUD ABBOTT & LOU COSTELLO. . . BUT TO WHAT END?  CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?  🤔 

 

 

 

[ldhair]

On 6/1/2023 at 7:47 PM, Henri Charriere said:

 BEGGING THE O.P.'s INDULGENCE (MINDFUL OF YOUR ADVISORY TO SAFM...)

I'VE BEEN WATCHING THESE EXCHANGES--SOME IN RE-RUNS--FOR YEARS AND I STILL DON'T GET IT.  MEMBERS HAVE WEIGHED IN FROM TIME TO TIME, YOURSELF INCLUDED, BUT TO NO AVAIL. NOW A CRITICAL SOMEWHAT PIVOTAL EXCHANGE WAS REMOVED AND I AM BEGINNING TO FEEL THIS IS SANCTIONED SPONSORED ENTERTAINMENT LIKE BUD ABBOTT & LOU COSTELLO. . . BUT TO WHAT END?  CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?  🤔 

 

 

 

I'm sick of you making a joke out of my post and threads. It needs to stop. 

[RWB]

"Clean up" question reply:

With new equipment and software purchased last fall, "clean up" is much simpler than in the past. Imaging functions are largely automated, but results still have to be reviewed for accuracy. This involves checking for any duplicate images (sometimes intentional, sometimes accidental), making sure all are rotated correctly (crossing grid lines can confuse orientation subroutines), verifying auto edge fill, reviewing auto geometry correction of warped originals, and other small defects that might reduce OCR accuracy or confuse users. Additionally, images are converted to PDF and headers showing file location are added. Lastly, all Cashier's Daily Statements are copied and saved in a separate folder with date and mint for each. These are also converted to PDF. (Individual Cashier's statement files are named so that users can combine files from several months into one large chronological sequence, if desired.) 

The completed box files are stored in my database. A PDF of the box contents in file order and a separate PDF of the dated Cashier's statements are uploaded to NNP for posting to their free access system.

[VKurtB]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:34 PM, RWB said:

"Clean up" question reply:

With new equipment and software purchased last fall, "clean up" is much simpler than in the past. Imaging functions are largely automated, but results still have to be reviewed for accuracy. This involves checking for any duplicate images (sometimes intentional, sometimes accidental), making sure all are rotated correctly (crossing grid lines can confuse orientation subroutines), verifying auto edge fill, reviewing auto geometry correction of warped originals, and other small defects that might reduce OCR accuracy or confuse users. Additionally, images are converted to PDF and headers showing file location are added. Lastly, all Cashier's Daily Statements are copied and saved in a separate folder with date and mint for each. These are also converted to PDF. (Individual Cashier's statement files are named so that users can combine files from several months into one large chronological sequence, if desired.) 

The completed box files are stored in my database. A PDF of the box contents in file order and a separate PDF of the dated Cashier's statements are uploaded to NNP for posting to their free access system.

Holy molies! PDF’s can often be really data intensive. You must be dragging around some big hard drives! That database must be monstrous. Auto geometry correction?!? I am suitably impressed. I was into the early years of scanning from books. Geometry was our biggest obstacle. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:50 PM, ldhair said:

I'm sick of you making a joke out of my post and threads. It needs to stop. 

... there is an app for that ... kindly avail yourself of the "ignore" feature which will effectively block any and all replies failing to meet  your exacting standards ... personal attacks on other member's replies made publicly are violations of the board guidelines... in the alternative you can make your concerns known via PM ...  

[RWB]

Current technology is very good at flattening book pages. The mathematics is straight forward but not necessarily intuitive - the best has come from China. Software is much weaker when dealing with single pages that are damaged or have irregular surfaces from water exposure. Here, we get what is just a straight-on page image. The same applies to pages that are curved from being folded for 100 years. (All box material from the Mint Bureau has been folded like a tri-fold brochure. The "outside" 1/3rd has an abstract of contents, and the page has to be carefully unfolded - without creasing - to scan. It is common to have to put small weights at top and bottom to be able to scan the content so it is readable.) Clear overlay pates are available at NARA, but the overhead fluorescent lights are reflected off the plate and ruin images. There's no place to get away from these lights.

The software handles auto cropping and background dropout, auto exposure, color correction and contrast adjustment (to help make light text visible). I might make additional adjustments on very faint text during clean up, but that's a little unusual.

Out of the approx 500+ pages in a typical file box, about 300 images are made of "useful" material. This makes a highest quality JPG file of about 1.1 gig for a box. After I return home, this is transferred to my desktop PC, converted to TIFF (for stability) and processed. Later, I will go through the files and extract documents of individual interest - which takes at least 1 day -- often longer. I also OCR as much of the PDF files as possible, but the accuracy rate is only about 97.5%.

Below is a typical 2-page letter assembled as a composite for illustration purposes. The fold lines are clearly visible. Edges were automatically filled to diminish curvature. There is a slight mismatch between lines of text and page edges. This can be from the typed original not being square with the paper, or from page distortion from incomplete unfolding. (NARA rules are very strict about handling documents.)

The letter is about a request for 10,000 Philippine proof sets intended for sale at the St. Louis Expo.

Edited June 2, 2023 by RWB

[ldhair]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:00 AM, Henri Charriere said:

... there is an app for that ... kindly avail yourself of the "ignore" feature which will effectively block any and all replies failing to meet  your exacting standards ... personal attacks on other member's replies made publicly are violations of the board guidelines... in the alternative you can make your concerns known via PM ...  

I don't break the rules and don't ignore or PM those that do. That's up to the mods to handle and they do a great job. My record here speaks for itself. Not even a single warning in my 20+ years of posting on this site. 

[ldhair]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:30 AM, RWB said:

The letter is about a request for 10,000 Philippine proof sets intended for sale at the St. Louis Expo.

Cool post. You got me looking for one of these sets. 

[RWB]

1904 proof set mintage was 1,355. The "10,000" mentioned above were uncirculated sets of which only about 1/3 were sold (typical of Faran Zerbe's inert salesmanship).

Edited June 2, 2023 by RWB

[The 12th Denticle]

On 6/2/2023 at 4:30 PM, RWB said:

Below is a typical 2-page letter assembled as a composite for illustration purposes. The fold lines are clearly visible. Edges were automatically filled to diminish curvature. There is a slight mismatch between lines of text and page edges. This can be from the typed original not being square with the paper, or from page distortion from incomplete unfolding. (NARA rules are very strict about handling documents.)

The letter is about a request for 10,000 Philippine proof sets intended for sale at the St. Louis Expo.

Thank you for providing this. It's interesting (for me at least) to read that the cost estimate was for 10K proof sets but what was actually minted were regular uncirculated coins. Hmm...Was there a misunderstanding? A change of plans? I would be interesting to see more information on this. Also, There was an enclosure to this letter from Charles Barber about striking. Please post if available.

[RWB]

Here's the enclosure, as requested.

RWB

All of the 1904 and a couple of 1905 boxes are available on NNP at no cost to users.