Draped busts? 1 1

[Azaiah]

I’m assuming these are fakes due to the rarity, but could use more experienced opinions, so let me know what y’all think. 
Thanks

[CIII]

I think both are countefeit.  The placement of the stars on the obverse are not where they should be, just glancing.

[EagleRJO]

Right off the bat the dates are wrong, as well as a few other things.  You can download authenticated examples at the PCGS CoinFacts site for a side-by-side comparison.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/dollars/draped-bust-dollar/type-1-small-eagle/737

Edited May 29, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

My pics are from NGC Coin Explorer of genuine Draped Bust Dollars. Your 1795 has the date, lettering and stars on the obverse out of place. Easiest seen with the first lower star is between the lower curls of the hair on the genuine so the one you have must be a counterfeit.

 

 

[powermad5000]

Your 1798 is replicating the small eagle version and the reverse looks nothing like the genuine.

[Sandon]

    Welcome to the NGC chat board.

    I'm of the opinion that both of these coins are counterfeit based upon comparisons with photos and descriptions of genuine examples. I'll name a few of the more obvious differences:

    Both coins appear to have a raised rim in places that suggests that the coins were struck in a close collar that wasn't used at the U.S. mint at that time.

   The 1795 is based on the BB-51, B-14 "off center bust" die variety but has lumps of extra metal around some of the stars and in other places. Some of the berries and leaves on the reverse don't have the same shapes as those on the genuine pieces. The coin appears to have significant wear but has luster in the fields that doesn't resemble the luster on rare About Uncirculated or Uncirculated examples but is consistent with that created by modern dies and equipment.

  The 1798 has a thirteen-star obverse and a small eagle reverse, for which only the BB-82, B-1 die variety would be a known match. The date on this piece is in the wrong location and has numerals with the wrong shape, most notably a pointed 9 instead of a knobbed 9.  The reverse is incorrect in a number of respects, such as the lack of a berry that is supposed to be just to the left of the left facing ribbon.

  These coins are supposed to have edges lettered with "HUNDRED CENTS ONE DOLLAR OR UNIT" with the words separated by decorated rectangles, circles and stars.  What is on the edges of these counterfeits?

[Azaiah]

On 5/29/2023 at 3:39 PM, Sandon said:

What is on the edges of these counterfeits?

The pictures I posted is all I have, someone was trying to sell them as part of a collection and I was just trying to confirm my thoughts that they are fakes.

[Sandon]

@EagleRJO and @powermad5000--The NGC Coin Explorer photo for the 1795 Draped Bust variety is of the BB-52, B-15 "centered bust" variety. Bear in mind that dies for pre-1837 or so U.S. coins were made from separate punches for devices, letters, numbers and stars, so each die had these features in somewhat different positions. You need to check the various die varieties before concluding that a coin of that vintage is a counterfeit based solely upon such positional differences. The 1795 posted here is a close match to the BB-51, which you can see photos of on VarietyPlus, but appears to be counterfeit based upon other criteria such as those I mentioned.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Sandon

[powermad5000]

@Sandon which is why I continue to always appreciate your vast knowledge and wisdom. 

[powermad5000]

I see from the BB-51 variety which as you stated is the only closest match to the OP's but the 9 and the L in LIBERTY are not right on the obverse, as well as some of the details around the eye and nose.

[powermad5000]

The 1798 small eagle (if it were the large eagle there are tons of varieties), only has a 15 star and a 13 star small eagle. The OP's is the 13 star which is the BB-82,B-1 variety of which is showing only one obverse. This looks nothing like the OP's.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/29/2023 at 3:50 PM, Sandon said:

You need to check the various die varieties before concluding that a coin of that vintage is a counterfeit based solely upon such positional differences. The 1795 posted here is a close match to the BB-51, which you can see photos of on VarietyPlus, but appears to be counterfeit based upon other criteria such as those I mentioned.

I recalled Dave Lange, the NGC variety guru who passed, discussing varieties of the older coins and how the locations of the various punches (date, portrait, etc.) can vary, but that the details should match.  PCGS CoinFacts had the 1795 off-center bust (BB-51) and the 1798 13-Star dollar coins, and I didn't think the date on either one matches.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1795-1-off-center-bust-bb-51-b-14/96859

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1798-1-small-eagle-13-stars/6867