Seeing Things from the Other Side of the Table 1 1

[Tyrock]

I've been collecting since the Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market. Since retiring I started selling coins at shows as a way to fill up my retirement hours. I do two to four shows a month and I've been fairly successful at what I'm doing. I also buy material from people I know or have met at shows. The trust they show in me is very gratifying.  As a collector I've been keenly aware of what unethical dealers are out there. There are also very reputable dealers as well and I try to be one of them. Teddy Roosevelt developed the habit of trying to examine both sides of an issue before making a decision. Now that I'm acting as a dealer, I understand that things are not all black and white. When buying a coin that I know will sit in my case for a year or two, should I pay full FMV or a little less? If the seller wants me to buy dad's proof sets or wheat cents along with the good coins, should I pay full FMV or less, as I know selling the proof sets or wheat cents will be a challenge. Many of my local dealers do not even buy proof sets or wheat cents. Yesterday, I sold my first bag of wheat cents to a MA dealer I see occasionally at shows. He paid me a price that made filling a mint bag with 5000 coins worthwhile, but I can tell you that going through that many wheat cent rolls is not the most fun anyone will have. Right now, I have some foreign currency on consignment, and I might just return the notes as I do not have the reference books to price the notes.  And Ebay sold items shows they are somewhat valuable, but I know that I do not have the market for them. Interesting experience when you see things from behind the table instead of in front of it.

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm not a dealer, but I do understand markets.  If you have to hold inventory or an investment for a longer period of time, you apply a liquidity discount.  If you can sell it today or tomorrow, the risk to you is much less.

 

[Greenstang]

Nice to hear things from the other side. I think a lot of sellers expect dealers to pay nearly full price for coins not realizing that the dealer has to make a profit too. I know when I have sold some coins to my dealer, ( manly because I couldn’t be bothered with selling them individually) I am happy with the 60% trends that I get.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:07 PM, Greenstang said:

Nice to hear things from the other side. I think a lot of sellers expect dealers to pay nearly full price for coins not realizing that the dealer has to make a profit too. I know when I have sold some coins to my dealer, ( manly because I couldn’t be bothered with selling them individually) I am happy with the 60% trends that I get.

That's what I don't get with the pre-show sales that we've talked about, even with feedback from some of the dealers who post here.  I think I do understand it more, but not 100%:

I get what you are saying regarding the dealer has an upper-limit to what he can sell the coins for so he needs a discount to buy so he can make a profit. But if I am a dealer on the other side.....why (aside from needing $$$ quickly or wanting out of a difficult coin to sell) would I discount the coin to HIM rather than try and sell it myself to a retail person for full price ?

I get if I bought the coin "cheap" and can still make some profit by selling to the dealer today vs. hoping to sell it for an extra 5% in a few days or weeks or months or whenever to a retail customer.

Am I wrong in thinking that dealer-to-dealer sales are very difficult during a flat or declining market because THEN you have the 1st dealer selling at minimal profit or a loss ?  

I can see how dealer-to-dealer works in a rising market....you sell a bit cheap, but STILL make $$$ (just less than if you had sold to retail) ?

OK...enough of my business ignorance. 

[zadok]

On 5/22/2023 at 1:03 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's what I don't get with the pre-show sales that we've talked about, even with feedback from some of the dealers who post here.  I think I do understand it more, but not 100%:

I get what you are saying regarding the dealer has an upper-limit to what he can sell the coins for so he needs a discount to buy so he can make a profit. But if I am a dealer on the other side.....why (aside from needing $$$ quickly or wanting out of a difficult coin to sell) would I discount the coin to HIM rather than try and sell it myself to a retail person for full price ?

I get if I bought the coin "cheap" and can still make some profit by selling to the dealer today vs. hoping to sell it for an extra 5% in a few days or weeks or months or whenever to a retail customer.

Am I wrong in thinking that dealer-to-dealer sales are very difficult during a flat or declining market because THEN you have the 1st dealer selling at minimal profit or a loss ?  

I can see how dealer-to-dealer works in a rising market....you sell a bit cheap, but STILL make $$$ (just less than if you had sold to retail) ?

OK...enough of my business ignorance. 

...u r looking at the coin "market" from a stock n bond perspective where shifts of 1% or 2% r considered buying n selling opportunities, very few coin transactions r conducted with those percentages unless its a super high price coin or a high volume transaction...most coin buying/selling %s r in double digits...coin marketing has many many variables; grading, conditions, eye appeal, collectability, not to mention the precious metals aspect n then the overhead/travel expenses...even the last item has variables within variables, brick/mortar dealers have diff profit margins than travelling show dealers...as mentioned previously the turn-a-round on inventory also enters into purchasing decisions...most dealers want/prefer turn over n volume business to sit on it n wait for the right buyer business...chaos n frantic buying/selling, feeding frenzy periods r good for business, slow stable melancholy periods r just so-so for the market...buying morgans n silver rounds is a no brainer, u know they r going to sell...buying a rare seated die pair a diff story n hence a diff % profit margin...n as u mention dealer to dealer transactions differ from dealer to retail as well...dont quit ur day job....

[World Colonial]

I've been a collector most of my life but I'm not sure I'd make a good dealer.  First, I'd need to learn to grade better.  Second, I'd probably overpay at least at first on less desirable coins, not offer enough on good coins, or both.

It takes time to build a reputation and make contacts.  When South African coinage was my primary interest, I ended up selling most of it through private transactions to obtain more predictable results.  I potentially could have realized more just selling on eBay at the time (2009 and 2010), but knowing these collectors helped since there is so little demand for much of what I had in the US.

Known sellers (like CRO) can also get prices that someone like me cannot.  This also makes a difference in how much to pay and to ask.

[VKurtB]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:03 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's what I don't get with the pre-show sales that we've talked about, even with feedback from some of the dealers who post here.  I think I do understand it more, but not 100%:

I get what you are saying regarding the dealer has an upper-limit to what he can sell the coins for so he needs a discount to buy so he can make a profit. But if I am a dealer on the other side.....why (aside from needing $$$ quickly or wanting out of a difficult coin to sell) would I discount the coin to HIM rather than try and sell it myself to a retail person for full price ?

I get if I bought the coin "cheap" and can still make some profit by selling to the dealer today vs. hoping to sell it for an extra 5% in a few days or weeks or months or whenever to a retail customer.

Am I wrong in thinking that dealer-to-dealer sales are very difficult during a flat or declining market because THEN you have the 1st dealer selling at minimal profit or a loss ?  

I can see how dealer-to-dealer works in a rising market....you sell a bit cheap, but STILL make $$$ (just less than if you had sold to retail) ?

OK...enough of my business ignorance. 

A fairly high percentage of dealer-to-dealer action at major shows is getting the “right” material to the “right” dealer specialists. A dealer who has gotten a bunch of high end cents, but doesn’t specialize in cents, might be talking to Charmy Harker or Angel Dee’s about them. When Cline was with us, he got nice Standing Libs shopped to him. I’ve seen this happen with mid to upper range foreign coins with Allen Berman. 

[Tyrock]

Quite a bit of business is done between dealer and dealer. When selling coins, it's important to cultivate good relationships with other dealers as they provide a ready market to sell coins at wholesale.  

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:00 PM, Tyrock said:

Right now, I have some foreign currency on consignment, and I might just return the notes as I do not have the reference books to price the notes.

You're killing me! You can't drop a tasty nugget like this and leave us hanging.  Can you list a couple? 

If you don't have the time no worries.

Good luck.  

[ldhair]

On 5/22/2023 at 6:13 PM, VKurtB said:

A fairly high percentage of dealer-to-dealer action at major shows is getting the “right” material to the “right” dealer specialists. A dealer who has gotten a bunch of high end cents, but doesn’t specialize in cents, might be talking to Charmy Harker or Angel Dee’s about them. When Cline was with us, he got nice Standing Libs shopped to him. I’ve seen this happen with mid to upper range foreign coins with Allen Berman. 

Well said. Collectors wanting to sell should keep this in mind. Start with a dealer that has a market in what you are selling.

[zadok]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:13 PM, VKurtB said:

A fairly high percentage of dealer-to-dealer action at major shows is getting the “right” material to the “right” dealer specialists. A dealer who has gotten a bunch of high end cents, but doesn’t specialize in cents, might be talking to Charmy Harker or Angel Dee’s about them. When Cline was with us, he got nice Standing Libs shopped to him. I’ve seen this happen with mid to upper range foreign coins with Allen Berman. 

...all of what u say is good n well, but only as long as everyone remembers the ultimate customer is the collector, eventually the "right" dealer has to retail to the collector...dealers dont want to be owners just short term custodians...business is business, but all of the "good buys" short changes the collector to some extent, hence we get the dealer/collector who usually doesnt last for long term periods n eventually has to choose between the two to survive...the "real" killer here to the community is the "dealer" who shows up to the shows just for the dealer-day business n packs up n leaves, conducting no retail or collector orientated business, this is a detriment to the hobby n should be penalized i.e. not allowed to set up for just the dealer-day n has to come in with the retail crowd...

[VKurtB]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:55 AM, zadok said:

...all of what u say is good n well, but only as long as everyone remembers the ultimate customer is the collector, eventually the "right" dealer has to retail to the collector...dealers dont want to be owners just short term custodians...business is business, but all of the "good buys" short changes the collector to some extent, hence we get the dealer/collector who usually doesnt last for long term periods n eventually has to choose between the two to survive...the "real" killer here to the community is the "dealer" who shows up to the shows just for the dealer-day business n packs up n leaves, conducting no retail or collector orientated business, this is a detriment to the hobby n should be penalized i.e. not allowed to set up for just the dealer-day n has to come in with the retail crowd...

I mostly avoid that problem (not quite as much as I used to, and would still like to) by buying where so many Pennsylvania dealers do - at Pennsylvania auctions. Auctions are nearly a fetish among Pennsylvanians, especially mid-state Pennsylvanians. There are literally dozens of back-country auction houses running coin auctions nearly every weekend. It is nothing short of an embarrassment of riches. Now, can I see some of that material in the Pennsylvania show circuit? Sure I can, but it's the same material that was bought by that dealer at the auction at which I sat next to him the previous week. Should I buy at the auction or wait for some dealer to buy it and mark it up next week? You do the math. MOST of my nicer acquisitions have been bought at 30-50% of FMV.

[zadok]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:23 PM, VKurtB said:

I mostly avoid that problem (not quite as much as I used to, and would still like to) by buying where so many Pennsylvania dealers do - at Pennsylvania auctions. Auctions are nearly a fetish among Pennsylvanians, especially mid-state Pennsylvanians. There are literally dozens of back-country auction houses running coin auctions nearly every weekend. It is nothing short of an embarrassment of riches. Now, can I see some of that material in the Pennsylvania show circuit? Sure I can, but it's the same material that was bought by that dealer at the auction at which I sat next to him the previous week. Should I buy at the auction or wait for some dealer to buy it and mark it up next week? You do the math. MOST of my nicer acquisitions have been bought at 30-50% of FMV.

...i understand that approach n i take advantage of local estate auctions virtually every weekend n even travel to penn if the auction listings warrant the time n effort, but not every locale offers those opportunities n many collectors only avenues to buy r at shows or online...my thoughts were that some of the bigger shows r weighed more to the dealers than the collectors, especially the dealer-to-dealer wholesale aspect which undercuts the collectors who travel in some cases great distances n have travel expenses that come from their coin budgets...the shows n organizations need to remember the collector is the backbone of the hobby...an ANA convention with only dealers there would probably not be very productive....

[VKurtB]

On 5/24/2023 at 7:55 AM, zadok said:

...i understand that approach n i take advantage of local estate auctions virtually every weekend n even travel to penn if the auction listings warrant the time n effort, but not every locale offers those opportunities n many collectors only avenues to buy r at shows or online...my thoughts were that some of the bigger shows r weighed more to the dealers than the collectors, especially the dealer-to-dealer wholesale aspect which undercuts the collectors who travel in some cases great distances n have travel expenses that come from their coin budgets...the shows n organizations need to remember the collector is the backbone of the hobby...an ANA convention with only dealers there would probably not be very productive....

Yes, the collector IS the backbone, and NOT the dealer, as they would have you believe. So I suggest voting in the upcoming ANA elections accordingly. Reject all dealers; vote for collectors. That means vote for Mark Lighterman and NOT Robert Oberth for Veep most of all. I will not cast a vote for any dealer OTHER THAN Kenny Sammut, who is a part-time dealer to help fund his studies at Seton Hall.

Edited May 24, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 5/24/2023 at 11:31 AM, VKurtB said:

Yes, the collector IS the backbone, and NOT the dealer, as they would have you believe. So I suggest voting in the upcoming ANA elections accordingly. Reject all dealers; vote for collectors. That means vote for Mark Lighterman and NOT Robert Oberth for Veep most of all. I will not cast a vote for any dealer OTHER THAN Kenny Sammut, who is a part-time dealer to help fund his studies at Seton Hall.

...good advice...as u astutely pointed out previously, there is already an organization for the dealers, PNG....

[ldhair]

I don't really understand this all but would like to learn. Have dealers done things that are not in the best interest of the hobby? Have they done things just to help them as dealers? 

[zadok]

On 5/24/2023 at 11:54 AM, ldhair said:

I don't really understand this all but would like to learn. Have dealers done things that are not in the best interest of the hobby? Have they done things just to help them as dealers? 

...that would be a definite yes....

[VKurtB]

On 5/24/2023 at 10:54 AM, ldhair said:

I don't really understand this all but would like to learn. Have dealers done things that are not in the best interest of the hobby? Have they done things just to help them as dealers? 

The most common problems are self-serving site selections for shows and using the organization’s resources to hype their businesses. Example? Shanna Schmidt, current board member dealer in downtown Chicago, is trying to get the WFM moved to downtown Chicago for 5 years straight. She is also using the ANA show to promote her joint venture, through a two hour press conference, with a Swiss ancients firm. It’s horrific and unrepentant. She is Harlan Berk’s daughter. 

[Zebo]

On 5/24/2023 at 3:42 PM, VKurtB said:

The most common problems are self-serving site selections for shows and using the organization’s resources to hype their businesses. Example? Shanna Schmidt, current board member dealer in downtown Chicago, is trying to get the WFM moved to downtown Chicago for 5 years straight. She is also using the ANA show to promote her joint venture, through a two hour press conference, with a Swiss ancients firm. It’s horrific and unrepentant. She is Harlan Berk’s daughter. 

I knew that name from somewhere. She’s quite impressive as a business woman. As for the ANA - I’d rather have an educator.

[Henri Charriere]

Dealer or not, I believe--by whatever name known, instinct, gut reaction, first impressions or simply having a discriminating eye bolstered by experience--that, if selling, the dealers will be all over an apparently uninformed pauper (first impressions count) and likewise quite deferential and unhurried in receiving the well-dressed, quite knowledgeable gentleman or dowager interested in buying. Without oversight, inter-dealing amongst dealers is a given.  If you are a regular patron of shows, or better yet, recognized as an on-site "promoter," I would imagine the dealers with whom you are most familiar with on a first name basis, may very well have something of interest they have set aside for your eyes only. Conspiratorial price-fixing across the board would be unlikely as every coin displays its own attributes, some quite prominently.

Howard Hughes skirted the legal requirement of making a personal appearance where and when mandated by law or making any public statements (at least until Clifford Irving showed up with an authorized biography, resulting in a nominal prison term) but while I am out from behind a walker and back on a cane my doctor described my circumstance as waiting for the Larsen ice shelf to deprive me of an underpinning.

To the OP:  interesting observations rarely spoken of or presented in print.  

[ldhair]

I would thing there would be rules in place to boot dealers like that. I can now see how important the elections are. I have never voted because I don't know those that are running. 

[zadok]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:48 AM, ldhair said:

I would thing there would be rules in place to boot dealers like that. I can now see how important the elections are. I have never voted because I don't know those that are running. 

...most of us dont know them personally, a good rule of thumb is read their bios which they chose the words for in the Numismatist n if it includes the word dealer dont vote for, if the word collector isnt there dont vote for, otherwise if they give their collector background they r probably worthy of ur vote....

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/24/2023 at 4:15 PM, Zebo said:

I knew that name from somewhere. She’s quite impressive as a business woman. As for the ANA - I’d rather have an educator.

Sad to say, but correctional officers routinely earn double the salaries (compensation package-wise) than teachers do in New York City. Shows you the value placed on education. And unbeknownst to the vast majority of your average college student, some "adjunct" professors are not compensated at all, with the attitude of some institutions being THEY profit from the honor and prestige of being affiliated with them.  Excuse moi! Strong administrative management and leadership skills are called for.

[VKurtB]

On 5/29/2023 at 12:14 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Sad to say, but correctional officers routinely earn double the salaries (compensation package-wise) than teachers do in New York City. Shows you the value placed on education. And unbeknownst to the vast majority of your average college student, some "adjunct" professors are not compensated at all, with the attitude of some institutions being THEY profit from the honor and prestige of being affiliated with them.  Excuse moi! Strong administrative management and leadership skills are called for.

Day to day management of the ANA is provided by the paid staff, not the Board or Officers. They do, and should, make policy and keep an eye on the fiscal affairs of the Association. The single most “influential” person at the ANA is their Legal Counsel, whose mandate is to try to keep the ANA out of courtrooms. This causes her to be really really cautious in all things, INCLUDING not letting the Association get involved in things that Roger Burdette wants it to get involved with. That’s sound policy in itself. 

[Henri Charriere]

What are the membership numbers of the ANA that would prompt anyone to suggest a single man, toiling deep inside the Archives, has the power and influence to threaten the agenda of a container ship such as what the Association has become, even one degree out of the inertia it's been in for so long that it precipitated a voter drive on this forum?

I wish I could be so honored!  🤣

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/24/2023 at 11:54 AM, ldhair said:

I don't really understand this all but would like to learn. Have dealers done things that are not in the best interest of the hobby? Have they done things just to help them as dealers? 

But in the past, bigtime dealers were also collectors.  While some could be a bit shady, others like QDB and David Akers had great reputations.

The folks who published and spoke and worked with bigtime collectors seemed to have the best reputations.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:06 AM, VKurtB said:

Day to day management of the ANA is provided by the paid staff, not the Board or Officers. They do, and should, make policy and keep an eye on the fiscal affairs of the Association. The single most “influential” person at the ANA is their Legal Counsel, whose mandate is to try to keep the ANA out of courtrooms. This causes her to be really really cautious in all things, INCLUDING not letting the Association get involved in things that Roger Burdette wants it to get involved with. That’s sound policy in itself. 

How about surveying dealers at various shows and getting feedback on "Business was BETTER/WORSE/THE SAME as I expected before the show" -- or something like that.  How about talking to show organizers and getting hard numbers on dealers, tables, and attendance ?

A trade organization should have that information.  What do you do when a reporter asks you these things, say "I don't have that information" or "We don't keep that kind of information" ?  Every other trade group or organizations has this data for their members.

Edited May 31, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2023 at 3:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How about surveying dealers at various shows and getting feedback on "Business was BETTER/WORSE/THE SAME as I expected before the show" -- or something like that.  How about talking to show organizers and getting hard numbers on dealers, tables, and attendance ?

A trade organization should have that information.  What do you do when a reporter asks you these things, say "I don't have that information" or "We don't keep that kind of information" ?  Every other trade group or organizations has this data for their members.

First, the ANA is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE a trade association. It’s a 501(c)3 educational organization. They do know hard numbers of dealers, attendees, and tables. They also know when pre-registration numbers are running well above the previous year’s pace, AND THEY ARE, and when dealer table applications are running higher, AND.THEY ARE, and when world mint participation is up, AND IT IS! Yes, Pittsburgh looks like it will make Chicagoland look sick by comparison. So far. We’ll see.

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB :

If my wife sees and hears me ROFLOL from another room she says, "Is that him?" And I say, "YES, IT IS!