6516864 scheduled for grading 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 5/2/2023 at 5:22 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

Check out alibaba website.  You will find your coin there……

And with THAT, the story ends. 

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 8:33 AM, VKurtB said:

And with THAT, the story ends. 

THAT, proves nothing to me sir. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/3/2023 at 10:38 AM, Ernest Nichols said:

THAT, proves nothing to me sir. 

And THAT is where your lack of understanding is revealed. Alibaba is THE locus of fakery. We’ve seen perhaps 100 or more people pass through here thinking they have discovery pieces. It never works out. You, sir, have fallen victim to “wishcraft”.

Edited May 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 8:51 AM, VKurtB said:

And THAT is where your lack of understanding is revealed. Alibaba is THE locus of fakery. We’ve seen perhaps 100 or more people pass through here thinking they have discovery pieces. It never works out. 

Sir…. Have you read this thread in its entirety? If not, maybe you should. If you have …. What part of my story on how i got this token do you not understand? This so called alibaba or whatever its called did not exist when “ MY UNCLE GAVE IT TO ME”

thank you, understand what it is before you speak. 

[VKurtB]

I understand FULLY, and have 60 years experience in this field. Alibaba is making fake copies OF fake copies, one of which was given to you by your uncle. Virtually every fake coin was “given to somebody by their uncle”. It’s the numismatic equivalent of “the dog ate my homework”. I also have a fake Bar Cent which was (wait for it) given to me by my now deceased uncle.

Edited May 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:03 AM, VKurtB said:

I understand FULLY, and have 60 years experience in this field. Alibaba is making fake copies OF fake copies, one of which was given to you by your uncle. Virtually every fake coin was “given to somebody by their uncle”. It’s the numismatic equivalent of “the dog ate my homework”. I also have a fake Bar Cent which was (wait for it) given to me by my now deceased uncle.

So, now you call someone you do not know a lier! I sir am 62 yrs old and this token was given to me in a tin box along with other coins and pictures 44 years ago! When the public had no access to the internet, and for that matter had no idea what the internet was.

[VKurtB]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:18 AM, Ernest Nichols said:

So, now you call someone you do not know a lier! I sir am 62 yrs old and this token was given to me in a tin box along with other coins and pictures 44 years ago! When the public had no access to the internet, and for that matter had no idea what the internet was.

The point is fakes are EVERYWHERE, including at NGC with your paperwork. 

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:24 AM, VKurtB said:

The point is fakes are EVERYWHERE, including at NGC with your paperwork. 

And do you think that NGC is 100% correct with one or two individuals evaluating coins, medals and tokens? 
Have you ever seen in person or physically held this particular token? NO…. And you have heard of getting second and possibly third opinions, right? Your point has been well taken. Why would anyone think of counterfeiting a F-230/352B token in white metal and or pewter, tin, lead when they as far as we know now were only struck in copper and brass? Think about all the possibilities on why someone would do that. Broaden your imagination…. How do you think the world evolved? …. Through new discoveries!! Right? Just answer this last question please….

[VKurtB]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:46 AM, Ernest Nichols said:

And do you think that NGC is 100% correct with one or two individuals evaluating coins, medals and tokens? 
Have you ever seen in person or physically held this particular token? NO…. And you have heard of getting second and possibly third opinions, right? Your point has been well taken. Why would anyone think of counterfeiting a F-230/352B token in white metal and or pewter, tin, lead when they as far as we know now were only struck in copper and brass? Think about all the possibilities on why someone would do that. Broaden your imagination…. How do you think the world evolved? …. Through new discoveries!! Right? Just answer this last question please….

Grading and evaluation at NGC is always done by a MINIMUM of three experts in whatever series is in front of them. Sometimes, but not always, more than three. You are embarrassing yourself, Ernest. Stop it! The ratio of fakes to new discoveries is easily 100,000 to 1, or even worse. Your desired XRF test proves or informs NOTHING!

Edited May 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 10:03 AM, VKurtB said:

Grading and evaluation at NGC is always done by a MINIMUM of three experts in whatever series is in front of them. Sometimes, but not always, more than three. You are embarrassing yourself, Ernest. Stop it! The ratio of fakes to new discoveries is easily 100,000 to 1, or even worse. Your desired XRF test proves or informs NOTHING!

Embarrassed? I dont think so! First off, you basically called me a lier and you can not answer simple questions, because you think you know everything usually means you dont … especially.. as i said before, you have not physically seen or held this token. Some people see the class half full (positive) and some see it half empty ( negative) go back and read and try to answer some of my questions, they are the ones behind the question marks. Shouldn’t be hard to find

[VKurtB]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:24 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

Embarrassed? I dont think so! First off, you basically called me a lier and you can not answer simple questions, because you think you know everything usually means you dont … especially.. as i said before, you have not physically seen or held this token. Some people see the class half full (positive) and some see it half empty ( negative) go back and read and try to answer some of my questions, they are the ones behind the question marks. Shouldn’t be hard to find

I see the edge seam you apparently do not, AND I can spell correctly, too. I have found that functional illiterates are seldom correct about anything. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 10:45 AM, VKurtB said:

I see the edge seam you apparently do not, AND I can spell correctly, too. 

And now you expand your intelligence with insults…. Well done, again, answer the questions please. Can you point out this “seem” you see without having it in your hand?

[Newenglandrarities]

I in no way am trying to start bad feelings for you Ernest.  Honestly I’m not, I hope you keep your passion and interest in Civil War tokens.  They are such a great area of collecting, but there are some scary fakes out there.  Fakes and counterfeits have been made in this series for many years, luckily most of them, especially ones made 20+ years ago, are not really good quality and are quite noticeable to a collector or specialist.  
 

When I say modern copy, modern to me means made in the last 50 years.  I am trying to help.  Here is a couple image that was posted across the street that are from the same maker as your coin.  These are all modern copies and they are starting to get better and better.  The piece in base metal that you are showing I have seen many times and they are known to many specialists in the field as modern reproductions made to fool collectors.

 

Again, I really wish I had better news for you.  I don’t want you to feel like I’m attacking you or calling you stupid, this situation hurts new collectors from enjoying and collecting great pieces of history.  I hope that this situation does not discourage you from continuing your interest in coins.  

Edited May 3, 2023 by Newenglandrarities

[Newenglandrarities]

In fairness, these pieces from this maker once were on Alibaba, though I see they are not all there anymore, so obviously everyone knows fakes, and I’ve noticed some of the more esoteric items that used to frequent alibaba are now off that site, and being sold in other venues.

 

Without saying too much, the side with the canons on it shows some very obvious telltale signed of a coin made using the casting process, and not from striking a coin.  Most of these modern counterfeits/fakes have a “mushy” look in areas that is not present on struck examples, something often unavoidable in the casting process.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Newenglandrarities

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:11 AM, Newenglandrarities said:

In fairness, these pieces from this maker once were on Alibaba, though I see they are not all there anymore, so obviously everyone knows fakes, and I’ve noticed some of the more esoteric items that used to frequent alibaba are now off that site, and being sold in other venues.

 

Without saying too much, the side with the canons on it shows some very obvious telltale signed of a coin made using the casting process, and not from striking a coin.  Most of these modern counterfeits/fakes have a “mushy” look in areas that is not present on struck examples, something often unavoidable in the casting process.

Do you have a pic of the outer rim. 

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:11 AM, Newenglandrarities said:

In fairness, these pieces from this maker once were on Alibaba, though I see they are not all there anymore, so obviously everyone knows fakes, and I’ve noticed some of the more esoteric items that used to frequent alibaba are now off that site, and being sold in other venues.

 

Without saying too much, the side with the canons on it shows some very obvious telltale signed of a coin made using the casting process, and not from striking a coin.  Most of these modern counterfeits/fakes have a “mushy” look in areas that is not present on struck examples, something often unavoidable in the casting process.

And who is this maker?

[VKurtB]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:39 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

And who is this maker?

Wait. You mean the counterfeiter didn’t sign his work? I am shocked, Rick. 

[Newenglandrarities]

Ernest, I can’t really help more than this, I posted a picture of your “exact” coin in actually better quality than yours.  It is a very well-known fake.  There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of this type of counterfeit that float around.  I also can see the edge from your images, I know you don’t see a seam to your eyes, but the edge is also a very telltale sign on these.  Even without you seeing the seam issue that is fairly obvious to me, I can tell from the edge that it is not correct in style and shape as an authentic civil war token edge.

 

The maker is not like a name you can contact, it’s an operation who has produced thousands of modern fakes, which unfortunately your coin is one of those.  

 

These fakes are very well known to NGC, PCGS, and all the grading services.  Even if they were not known to collectors or grading services, a very quick look at your coin would tell anyone who is experienced that the coin is wrong and not of the era of the 1860s.  Again, I’m very sorry for this information and I hope you are able to see that spending anymore money trying to certify your “unique new discovery” will just end up with the same result and a loss of more money and time for you.  
 

Just to point out, how can your coin be a new unique variety when I just posted another example of it?  Not trying to pile on, but I have seen over a dozen in the last year or two of your exact coin in that exact metal.  Again, I’m very sorry, but it is not, and will not ever be, something other than a fantasy/fake modern reproduction.  

[Newenglandrarities]

I will add, your exact die pairing is known in reproductions in copper, brass, “white metal” as well.  These particular designs of patriotic CWTs was a favorite for this maker and there are literally dozens of “unique” combinations that have shown up.  Frankly, these (including your coin) are the most obvious of all the fakes that have presented themselves to the market in the last 25-30 years,  

[Newenglandrarities]

These are some of the dies that have been produced in low quality copies like yours.  There is a real operation here, and a lot of people trying to combat these.  Hundreds were trying to be sold on eBay in the last 10 years, and there is a group of people who watch eBay for exactly this type of thing to have them removed so an unsuspecting buyer does not get ripped off.  Hopefully this helps,  

http://www.cwtsociety.com/news/alerts.shtml

Edited May 3, 2023 by Newenglandrarities

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:06 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

Ernest, I can’t really help more than this, I posted a picture of your “exact” coin in actually better quality than yours.  It is a very well-known fake.  There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of this type of counterfeit that float around.  I also can see the edge from your images, I know you don’t see a seam to your eyes, but the edge is also a very telltale sign on these.  Even without you seeing the seam issue that is fairly obvious to me, I can tell from the edge that it is not correct in style and shape as an authentic civil war token edge.

 

The maker is not like a name you can contact, it’s an operation who has produced thousands of modern fakes, which unfortunately your coin is one of those.  

 

These fakes are very well known to NGC, PCGS, and all the grading services.  Even if they were not known to collectors or grading services, a very quick look at your coin would tell anyone who is experienced that the coin is wrong and not of the era of the 1860s.  Again, I’m very sorry for this information and I hope you are able to see that spending anymore money trying to certify your “unique new discovery” will just end up with the same result and a loss of more money and time for you.  
 

Just to point out, how can your coin be a new unique variety when I just posted another example of it?  Not trying to pile on, but I have seen over a dozen in the last year or two of your exact coin in that exact metal.  Again, I’m very sorry, but it is not, and will not ever be, something other than a fantasy/fake modern reproduction.  

So you can not show me a pic of the outer rim? Maybe it’s because those are not your pics. And you can not provide a name of the maker because you have no idea. So you jumped into this conversation not answering very simplistic questions just based on your knowledge. What credentials do any of you have that would verify your expertise? And by the way …. I have searched for months and found copper and brass fakes but no white metal. I have contacted Scovill manufacturer and although it will take some time… they are willing to check there archives  to see if indeed this token was struck at there plant. 

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:18 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

These are some of the dies that have been produced in low quality copies like yours.  There is a real operation here, and a lot of people trying to combat these.  Hundreds were trying to be sold on eBay in the last 10 years, and there is a group of people who watch eBay for exactly this type of thing to have them removed so an unsuspecting buyer does not get ripped off.  Hopefully this helps,  

http://www.cwtsociety.com/news/alerts.shtml

And as you can see it is questionable by the question marks by 230 and 352. Which makes this individual uncertain…. Wouldn’t you say? Yes, another question, can you answer this one and others I've asked?

[Newenglandrarities]

Ok, I literally just showed you your exact coin in a picture.  It is listed on the obvious fake list.  I have been dealing in Civil War tokens for over 30 years, I am a published and recognized expert and a consultant for many grading services and books written on these coins.  I’m not really sure what to tell you at this point.  
 

Think of it this way, I would be the first to congratulate you on a great new discovery, and would most likely be trying to get you to sell me this coin as I sell high 6 figures of CWTs yearly.  Why would I not want this amazing new discovery for my clients if it was real?  
 

I am trying to help.  I assumed you would just argue, so I think everyone but you will be able to see exactly what you have at this point.  Remember I’m not being paid to give you bad news here, I am taking my time out of my day to try to help you not lose any more money or time on your coin, which unfortunately exists because of greed.  It is not a real coin, it will not ever be.  I wish it was, I’m sorry.

[Newenglandrarities]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:25 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

And as you can see it is questionable by the question marks by 230 and 352. Which makes this individual uncertain…. Wouldn’t you say? Yes, another question, can you answer this one and others I've asked?

That is not what it says if you read,  it is actually so off that they have to call it something.  Read the text by the Civil War Token Society above.  I’m sure the national organization of experts would be happy to tell you exactly what I am telling you at this point.  Feel free to reach out to them if you desire.

 

I do not have an edge picture but you need to understand, where is your edge picture which would clearly show what I’ve and others have told you.  Also, you ask who is the maker, I did answer, it is an operation that is overseas that make all sorts of fakes, from Civil War Tokens, to other coins.  This is very common in our world these days.  This is not a website or a person you can contact obviously, what faker would have that information there for you.  Can you call up the maker of fake Rolex’s and talk to the maker to ask them anything?  
 

again, I’m sorry that you do not have what you think you do.  I am done at this point.  Good luck

Edited May 3, 2023 by Newenglandrarities

[Ernest Nichols]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:26 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

That is not what it says if you read,  it is actually so off that they have to call it something.  Read the text by the Civil War Token Society above.  

Yes, it is off, it is white metal… which leads to the question of why would someone make a fake that isn't even the same metal? Did you stop and think that it could be a zinc composition? Which over years can appear as you would say “ grainy” and or bubbled. You have to admit… i do make a reasonable argument sir. And may i call you by your name please? I don't even know whom i am chatting with. And what is the metal composition and weight of this token of yours? If you don't mind me asking another unanswered question i’m assuming.

[Sandon]

On 5/3/2023 at 3:44 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

why would someone make a fake that isn't even the same metal?

   Many of these fakes aren't made to deceive knowledgeable collectors but are mass produced for sale as cheap souvenirs or to deceive the unwary.  The makers often didn't care about the metallic composition of the originals or about duplicating their true appearance. The packets of such items that I saw decades ago in souvenir or novelty shops were usually made in a silvery (like yours) or darkish "antiqued" looking color.  

   In my experience (over 50 years) a coin or other numismatic item's being in an unfamiliar composition usually means that it is not genuine, not that it is a significant new discovery!

   When and where did your uncle tell you he obtained this token, and what else did he tell you about it?

   

[VKurtB]

On 5/3/2023 at 3:26 PM, Sandon said:

   Many of these fakes aren't made to deceive knowledgeable collectors but are mass produced for sale as cheap souvenirs or to deceive the unwary.  The makers often didn't care about the metallic composition of the originals or about duplicating their true appearance. The packets of such items that I saw decades ago in souvenir or novelty shops were usually made in a silvery (like yours) or darkish "antiqued" looking color.  

   In my experience (over 50 years) a coin or other numismatic item's being in an unfamiliar composition usually means that it is not genuine, not that it is a significant new discovery!

   When and where did your uncle tell you he obtained this token, and what else did he tell you about it?

   

This OP is a prime example of why I get übersnarky from time to time. So much ignorance, so much false confidence. So annoying. Argue, argue, argue, with expert after expert, after expert. It makes people angry.  Here’s the best advice I have, honestly. Stick it away. Don’t resubmit it. Store it with this thread, printed out. MAYBE a future owner, in 100 or so years (that’s how long it will take) might appreciate the humor. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:51 AM, VKurtB said:

Alibaba is THE locus of fakery. We’ve seen perhaps 100 or more people pass through here thinking they have discovery pieces. It never works out.

Ernest consider that AliBaba, as well as a spin off companies including AliExpress, are well know suppliers of fake items made in China, including the token being discussed.  These companies actually take pride in being able to copy virtually anything, including a vast array of collectible US coins and tokens, and then sell it on US markets dirt cheap.

Chinese law only restricts copying Chinese currency, not US coins and tokens.  Luckily these fakes have become well known, and US law enforcement has been cracking down on people for importing counterfeits.

http://ncna.club/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Counterfeit-Coins-Article.pdf

On 5/3/2023 at 12:00 PM, Ernest Nichols said:

What part of my story on how i got this token do you not understand? This so called alibaba or whatever its called did not exist when “ MY UNCLE GAVE IT TO ME”

I don't think anyone is questing how you got the token, or even how your uncle got the token, but consider that the Chinese have been knocking off items, including counterfeits of US coins and tokens, long before Al Gore invented the internet, and just had catalogs of these items.

On 5/3/2023 at 2:06 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

Here is a couple image that was posted across the street that are from the same maker as your coin.  These are all modern copies and they are starting to get better and better.

Here are two more listed on eBay now that have an uncanny resemblance to the op's token (except a different reverse die) including the mushy details, like the lettering on the canons and the drums, available in various colors or metals.  Some people end up buying and reselling items like this without realizing they are fake, or at least that's their story.  

Edited May 4, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Fenntucky Mike]

Geuss I didn't realize that some CWT's commanded such strong prices. To bad this one didn't cut muster.

After seeing NGC's determination as to the authenticity of this piece and reading through the thread I have to agree that any further effort to validate it would be an effort in futility.

[Just Bob]

On 5/2/2023 at 5:22 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

I cannot do that here on the forum, as counterfeiters have “trolled” the coin forums to know what is wrong with their modern fakes, and have improved many to fool a lot of smart people.  

Thank you for confirming what I and a few others have been saying for years. I just wish that we could convince others on this website who insist on pointing out every wrong detail that they can find on the numerous fakes that we see here. They apparently don't believe (and some have stated it outright) that the counterfeiters read these forums. What they don't seem to understand is that I believe it isn't just some Chinese guy with a basement coin press who is watching the boards; it is the American sellers who are constantly trying to have the products improved so they can fool even the experts. Those fake coppers that Charmy posted which fooled the graders and finalizers and made it into PCGS and NGC slabs should have every one of us worried.

Not more than 45 minutes ago, I looked up the cert number on a PCGS MS64 Morgan that my grandson was looking at to buy. It was a fake, in a fake PCGS Gold Shield slab, and a very convincing one.