2017 silver Britannia weak strike. My thoughts and questions. 0

[Delbert Wells]

Question:

      Is my 2017 silver Britannia that appears to be an extremely weak strike with damage worth the hassle of grading and slabbing?

      Trying my best to vent as little “newbie” aroma as possible, I’ll keep it to basic information first, followed by more detailed descriptions and my thoughts.  

1. 2017 Britannia received from Hero Bullion a few weeks ago as part of a purchase of culls.

2. Appearance looks as though the planchet was only about 50% engaged by the dies.  Lack of crisp details is *NOT* due to wear like that which is typically found in 90% "junk" silver coins.

3. The uniformity of scraping damage on both sides appears to be more of a machining process of damage rather than rough handling.

4. Weight using a gunpowder digital scale is 31.32 grams / 1.007 ozt.  Royal Mint website lists 2017 as having a weight of 1 Troy Oz, but does not list grams, although I know this can fluctuate to some degree.

5. Diameter using calipers is 38.39mm and thickness is 2.96mm.  Royal Mint website lists 2017 as having a diameter of 38.61mm, which it might be if the planchet was fully struck.  The reeds are not fully formed in this case, so it would make sense that the diameter is smaller.

6. Sigma Metalytics used by my LCS guy confirms .999 fine silver.

 

     So, what am I trying to do here? 

     Well, I’m not sure if this sort of thing happens often in modern sovereign coin minting, or if there’s an interest in these items.  The closest example I could find would be a mint error regarding the 2014 Britannia Lunar Mule obverse, and according to the NGC World Auction Central, the average auction price for those so far has been $165.  This is only a weak strike with damage, and not a strike error, so I’m not sure what to think.

     It seems odd that the way .999 bullion is handled, that one of these could have made it into a tube past quality control, but maybe I’m placing too much faith in the process.  If there are other examples from around the world where modern bullion and coins from the recent decade have escaped to the wild that are in this condition, I would appreciate any information.

     In any case, this would be a fun way to enjoy first-hand learning about the grading process and a curiosity to have in the family even if isn’t really worth the effort financially.  Also, it would be a way to validate its authenticity in the event that this might become of interest in the future.

     However, is this bullion coin in a condition that NGC would even accept in the first place? 

     Thanks for your time and I look forward to any comments.

[Greenstang]

Welcome the the Chat Box.

There are two things that can happen to a coin, damage or an error. An error can only occur during the striking of the coin. 
It is not a weak strike and I can’t see how this could possibly happen during the striking of the coin so the alternative is that it is damage, no matter how it happened. You purchased it as a cull and that is exactly what you got.

 

[J P M]

Wow. I have never seen a bullion coin with that much wear it looks like a dryer coin.

Edited January 10, 2023 by J P M

[Delbert Wells]

On 1/1/2023 at 4:28 PM, J P M said:

Wow. I have never seen a bullion coin with that much ware it looks like a dryer coin.

The thing is that the figure is polished yet not fully formed. The date is not worn, yet not fully formed.  The reeds are not worn, yet not fully formed.  I wish there was a way that folks here could see it in person, because then it would be evident.  Compared with my other Britannia's, it's ever so slightly thicker, like a hamburger patty before you press on it with a spatula.  

[Greenstang]

There are countless ways that a coin can be damaged but there are limited ways for an error to occur. Which of these limited ways do you think caused this to be classed as an error. I can’t think of any.

 

[J P M]

On 1/1/2023 at 6:56 PM, Delbert Wells said:

The thing is that the figure is polished yet not fully formed. The date is not worn, yet not fully formed.  The reeds are not worn, yet not fully formed.  I wish there was a way that folks here could see it in person, because then it would be evident.  Compared with my other Britannia's, it's ever so slightly thicker, like a hamburger patty before you press on it with a spatula.  

So it needs to cook a little longer before it is done. I understand now..................... My original response must be to far fetched ???.  

On 1/1/2023 at 5:28 PM, J P M said:

Wow. I have never seen a bullion coin with that much ware it looks like a dryer coin.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On the obv, the rims are worn down, if not completely gone in places, in fact the entire periphery shows signs of extreme wear giving the piece that "hamburger" look you described. The central devices seem fully struck but with the high points worn with well defined unbroken striations,  except at the transition points, across both the fields and devices, high and low points. Clearly damage IMO.

[Delbert Wells]

     I took great strides to word my description of the coin with as many details as I thought I could provide.  I read about 12 different threads here, and most specifically the one posted by JKK, “What you need to know about posting coins for inquiry”, and found it to be very insightful.  I’m not new to coins, just not as knowledgeable as the rest of you, but I do know how these bullion coins are produced and what it looks like to see a die strike a coin – so I understand the process.  I also understand why you don’t want to believe what I’m saying, because I wasn’t sure what I was looking at when I first received it.

     Since everyone is certain that I don’t know what I’m talking about, then I suppose that the images I provided overstated the very light surface scratches that are present which are hardly visible to the naked eye.  I will accept this to be my fault.  As such, I’m supplying new images with different lighting taken from different angles.  As mentioned, you can barely see them with the naked eye, and as I stated in the original post, this is NOT the same thing as wear that one would typically find on worn junk silver as I have plenty of those, and that’s not what this is. 

     The rims are present on both the obverse and reverse, and this is not a flat coin, and weighs in at the correct weight.  The dates are not worn, but instead are not fully formed and therefore difficult to make out.  If the die had made a complete strike, then even the details on the figure of Britannia would be fully formed and not just flat and shiny like a polished planchet.

     I’m not interested in “getting rich”, and frankly I don’t care if it’s worth $5 less than spot or $5000, because I don’t plan to sell it anyway.  I’m simply trying to see if this is something that I could submit for grading, or if NGC would kick it back for some reason that I’m not aware of.  I was thinking this might be a fun “first submission” to learn the process with regardless of the outcome, or at least to have it validated as genuine.

     I apologize for being a bother, but I felt that the folks here would at least be able to tell me how to proceed if I did my best to speak the language and provide the data necessary to make an informed decision.  It appears that I have failed.  Thanks for your input, and I do appreciate those who took the time to comment.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Has nothing to do with what I want or don't want to believe, you did an excellent job of describing what you are seeing, I'm just throwing out my opinion, in the end it's up to you but I wouldn't send this coin in.

I understand the need to know what happened to a coin but more often than not it can't be explained specifically other than it's damaged. Sending it to a TPG probably won't net anymore info and will cost $$, but if you do want to spend the money on authentication be sure to submit this coin under the Mint Error tier, which I think is an additional $18 on top of the standard grading fee. With shipping and handling you're probably looking at $60+ to have the coin, on it's own, authenticated.

If you send the coin in I hope I'm wrong and that you'll post the results, good luck.

[J P M]

We do understand your curiosity I am a big fan of looking for error coins. We see many coins here and it is fun to try to figure out what may have happened. The first photos' you put up show the scratches from polishing or ware. The rims of coins are always higher so they would be the first to go. I do not believe that it was struck with two bad dies obverse and reverse that were that worn out. I believe it was like I said a dryer coin or someone has intentionally damaged the coin for some reason then polished it up. Just my opinion for what it is worth. I wish you luck if you send it in.  

Edited January 2, 2023 by J P M

[Delbert Wells]

Thanks, Fenntucky Mike!  This is the sort of response I was hoping for.  Since I'm new to the TPG thing, I thought this coin would be a fun first submission and was already figuring that it would be about $75 once shipping is figured in.  I don't really care about the price as this would be strictly for learning the process, but I wasn't sure what boxes to check when I send it in, so your suggestions help a lot. 

JPM, thanks for your input as well!  I've learned heaps already and will continue to read the various threads each week so that I may learn more.

[RWB]

Check weight, diameter, etc. directly against a known authentic token. Run it past a magnet and some good spaghetti sauce or hard boiled eggs. (for alloy).

[Delbert Wells]

On 1/8/2023 at 7:16 PM, RWB said:

Check weight, diameter, etc. directly against a known authentic token. Run it past a magnet and some good spaghetti sauce or hard boiled eggs. (for alloy).

Yeah, already checked these (minus the spaghetti and eggs) and mentioned in the original post, and my LCS guy used his Sigma Metalytics to confirm .999 fine silver.  For some reason now I want some garlic bread.  Thanks for the info though. ;-) 

[RWB]

If you can, take it to a dealer who has a submission account and let them submit along with other coins. That will cut your postage cost and also give you an up-front opinion on the coin and maybe it's approximate value.

(The original photos are too harsh and contrasty, as well as fuzzy, to make any conclusions from them.)

[Delbert Wells]

Thanks!

 

[Greenstang]

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