1812 Capped Bust Half Dollar - Large 8? 0

[SolarisSetter]

1. Is this a "2 Over 1 - Large 8" version of the Capped Bust Half Dollar?
2. There is a large round stain on the rear - I'm guessing perhaps from another coin in the box it was stored in. Any idea on if can be cleaned and how/should?
3. What would you grade this coin?

Thank you!

[EagleRJO]

It does not look like a match with an 1812/1 Large 8 as the 1 and 2 are too close together on your coin.  See attached NGC VarietyPlus 1812/1 Large 8 O-101 and O-101A from the following link ... https://www.ngccoin.in/variety-plus/united-states/half-dollars/capped-bust-lettered-edge-half-dollars-1807-1836/

You may want to check that NGC webpage to see if you can find a match as a first step.  Also, the stain is on the "reverse" of the coin, not the "rear".  And for anyone to help as to if there is a chance to remove the stain they would need an idea of what caused the stain or what it is.

[JKK]

1) Highly doubt it.

2) Do not clean this coin. It's already been cleaned plenty (no way to know by whom). It's not helping. If you clean it again, it will be sinful on your part.

3) F-12 at least. VF-20 is possible.

I like busties even if cleaned and mid-grade.

[EagleRJO]

Here are the dates for the O-101 and O-101A to verify it's not a match.  Notice the space between the 1 and 2, which can easily be gauged by counting denticles along the rim..

Edited December 22, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the Forum.  

   Your coin is definitely not the rare 1812, 2 over 1, Large 8 variety (O-101 or 101A).  It is a non-overdate 1812 small 8 variety.  Compare the size, shapes and locations of the numerals relative to Liberty's Bust with the photos on @EagleRJO's post. Note particularly how the peaks of the "1s" in the date on your coin point upward, while the peaks of the "1s" on the coins in the photos point downward, as well as the difference in the size and width of the "8". The date position doesn't match the 1812, 2 over 1, small 8 (O-102 or 102A) variety either. The elongated areas under the second "1" and "2" are indicative of a worn die, not an overdate.

   The "stained" area on the reverse is likely corrosion, which can't be removed without damaging and devaluing the coin.  If it is foreign matter that isn't chemically bonded to the metal, it might be removed by an acetone bath.  Never use anything that abrasively or chemically alters the coin metal!

   

   

[EagleRJO]

On 12/16/2022 at 12:38 AM, Sandon said:

It is a non-overdate 1812 small 8 variety ...   

@SandonI believe that the op's coin has a "Large 8",` as the 8 is larger than the adjacent 1's.  See attached markup of the op's coin.

With the "Small 8" variety the height of the 8 is about the same as the height of the 1's.

Edited December 16, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Just Bob]

The OP's coin appears to be Overton-103.

[Sandon]

@EagleRJO-- Actually, the "small 8" and "large 8" nomenclature that is used for 1811 Bust half dollars and the 1812 overdates isn't popularly used for other 1812 varieties, so I probably shouldn't have referred to the original poster's coin as a "small 8" variety. However, the "8" on his coin looks narrower and thinner than the "large 8" 1812 overdate varieties or the 1811 large 8s.  There also seems to be some variation in the date punches used for the eight non-overdate 1812 varieties. I don't think I have the software to draw a line through the numerals as you do or the time to do a full comparison. 

 

[SolarisSetter]

Wow, friends! I can't begin to express my gratitude for sharing your expertise. I've learned much reading through your comments. Though I'm disappointed that it isn't a more valuable coin, this saved me some headache.

@Sandon I especially thank you for gentle teaching towards finding the right coin. It wasn't clear to me there were so many different variations!

After looking at the variations in the link @EagleRJO provided, I'm fairly certain it's in fact an 1812 O-109a. The upturned 1's are the tell. I think @Just Bob could be correct about 1812 O-103, but 109a seems to match closer to my eye... Might I be on the right track?

[EagleRJO]

@SolarisSetter I agree with JustBob that your coin is a closer match with an O-103 where the "8" is squared up with the first "1" like with your coin.

For the O-109A the "8" is rotated slightly counterclockwise compared to the first "1", so I don't think that's a match with your coin.

 

 

[Sandon]

   The reason for all of the varieties is that the dies for early (pre-1837 or so) U.S. coins were each made from separate punches for the devices, numbers, letters and stars, so each die showed various design elements in different positions in relation to each other and sometimes other distinctive characteristics. For early (1794-1836) half dollars the varieties were catalogued by Al C. Overton in a book first published in the 1960s, hence the "O" numbers.  The letters following some numbers indicate a later "die state" of the same numbered variety, with the die showing cracks, clash marks, or other signs of wear or damage. The Overton book, which unfortunately I don't have, describes the most important characteristics, but I do have an auction catalog (Jules Reiver collection) that describes some of them. (I have collected Bust half dollars by the varieties listed in the "Redbook".)

   It's difficult for me to attribute your coin just from the photos, especially when I have to switch screens.You may have better luck comparing your actual coin to the photos.   O-103 on the reverse has "a pair of small die lumps below the "I" in "AMERICA", which I can barely see on the VarietyPlus photo but can't make out on yours. The most important characteristic for the O-109a die state are on the obverse a "round lump at [to the left of] star 10" (the third star from the top on the right side) and on the reverse "heavy reverse die defect marks or lumps above and below the eagle's left (facing) wing and extending to the olive leaves". You can see these characteristics in the VarietyPlus photos, but I don't see them on your coin. The pertinent area of the reverse is obscured by the area of corrosion. VarietyPlus has no photo of the early O-109 die state. (Check PCGS "Coinfacts".) In any case, are no rare varieties of the non-overdate 1812, although the O-104 is somewhat scarce (Rarity 3).

[SolarisSetter]

I really appreciate the background on this coin - it's helpful to know that the overdate is really the only especially rare version - of which this coin is not. Disappointing but helpful to know.

I would appreciate advice on how to proceed with the info/skills that I have. Does NGC have a service for the case where I am not an expert and don't know what exactly the coin is? For them to identify and grade it, so I can value it? Or is there a better way to approach this situation? Thank you.

[EagleRJO]

For the O-109, the date would be the same as an O-109A as the letter designations for the Overton number simply indicate a later state for the same die.  So the O-109 would not be a match either for the same reasons as stated above for the O-109A.

I would look more closely with the coin in-hand at a possible match with the O-103, and then take things from there.

Quote

Does NGC have a service for the case where I am not an expert and don't know what exactly the coin is?

If you have other coins where you think it is a certain variety but you are not sure, I would recommend posting the coin to this board in a separate topic to ask about that.  There are a lot of very experienced and knowledgeable collectors who regularly post on this board that can typically help.

Also, if you are interested in varieties for certain coins you can post a topic asking about that and get some assistance on books and other references that can be helpful to learn more about those.

Edited December 17, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

  It's unclear what "skills" (knowledge) you presently have or what your collecting interests presently are.  If you're a new collector, you need to know the basics about U.S. coins and their grading before you go on to more advanced areas such as the attribution of early U.S. coins by die variety. The submission of coins to third party grading services like NGC is only worthwhile for those who have sufficient knowledge to know that their coins are of sufficient value to justify the substantial cost involved. See the topics under the "Submit" tab on the NGC home page regarding the services available and their cost. In my opinion, your 1812 half dollar isn't worth this cost as it would come back Fine or Very Fine "details" graded due to the corrosion and probable improper "cleaning", and having it attributed would be a waste of an additional $18 as it's a common die variety.  Its retail value is probably less than $100.  Are you familiar with and have access to resources such as those described in the following topic that I posted in this forum?

 

 

[Just Bob]

There is a quick way to narrow down the Overton variety, which I use when trying to attribute Bust halves. As Sandon said above, the letters, numerals, and devices were punched separately into the working die, and each die has slightly different placement of these elements. That allows us to compare the relationship between elements and identify each die that was used, and which obverse die was paired with which reverse die. Check the alignment on the reverse of your coin of the "T" in "UNITED" with the "I" in "PLURIBUS." You will notice (if I am reading your picture correctly) that the left side of the vertical post of the two letters lines up almost exactly. If you compare the pictures of the varieties on the Variety Plus page - luckily, this year has only 10 die pairs - you will find that two varieties, O-110, and O-103, match this description. Moving to the left end of the ribbon, we see that the end of the ribbon on your coin lines up with the left side of the post of the "D." Since the ribbon on O-110 extends past that point, that leaves O-103 as the answer to your question.

It isn't always this easy, since reverse dies were sometimes paired with multiple obverse dies, and vice versa. In these cases, you can use "star tip-to-denticle" relationships and other indicators, such as those noted above, to narrow down your choices. In the case of O-103, we know from studying the dies that obverse die 3 was paired with reverse die B, and this die marriage was the only use of either of these dies this year.

Looking forward to seeing what else you have to post.

[Lem E]

This is another good site for Bust Half attribution.

http://maibockaddict.com/

[EagleRJO]

@Just Bobthanks for that tip!  I often struggle with finding the Overton number with a half that has a lot of varieties.  If you wouldn't mind could you do a thread with a few more examples.  I think that would be very helpful.

Edited December 21, 2022 by EagleRJO