OGH, NGC Classic, & CAC Are In High Demand 0

[VKurtB]

On 12/14/2022 at 5:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's there, trust me.  And there are lots of posts here (and maybe threads) that talk about it.

 

I’ll have more respect for that story when I experience it. Maybe, almost certainly, my experience is a function of the type of coins I “cross”, middle BU grade not extremely rare stuff mostly. One exception is one ICG I had crossed to NGC, a 1893-S Morgan in a middle circulated grade. My son was reading a price guide when he remarked, “Hey Dad, this coin is worth more than this car.” He wasn’t wrong. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:57 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ll have more respect for that story when I experience it. 

Jimbo just re-submitted a MSD and posted about it here.....don't know if it's a clear-cut example of gradeflation, but he (apparently correctly) re-submitted and got an MS-61 up from an AU-58 with VAM designations.

[VKurtB]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Jimbo just re-submitted a MSD and posted about it here.....don't know if it's a clear-cut example of gradeflation, but he (apparently correctly) re-submitted and got an MS-61 up from an AU-58 with VAM designations.

I’d prefer to believe that the upgrade and the VAM designation are completely independent events, but I just can’t make myself believe it. Those two gradings happened VERY close together in time. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 12/15/2022 at 12:24 AM, VKurtB said:

I’d prefer to believe that the upgrade and the VAM designation are completely independent events, but I just can’t make myself believe it. Those two gradings happened VERY close together in time. 

I don't consider those two grades representative.  In the coins I have collected which admittedly are not US, both are often interchangeable.  I own coins in both grades.  Admittedly, my sample is quite small, but it seems that "sliders" sometimes get bumped up for something like "eye appeal".

One coin I bought in 2005 was in an AU-58 holder when I bought it the first time from Goldberg.  They couldn't find it and refunded my money.  In their next auction a few months later, the same coin shows up in the current MS-61 holder.  The consigner was paid and then tried to sell the coin again, double dipping.  He just happened to get caught because I wanted the coin and recognized it as the one I bought.

For this coin, either grade could be "correct".  The coin (1847 Mexico 4R) is untoned but looks like it has been dipped on the obverse.  The reverse is semi or fully PL.  I don't see any indication of wear, but there could be some, somewhere.

[VKurtB]

On 12/15/2022 at 3:27 PM, World Colonial said:

I don't consider those two grades representative.  In the coins I have collected which admittedly are not US, both are often interchangeable.  I own coins in both grades.  Admittedly, my sample is quite small, but it seems that "sliders" sometimes get bumped up for something like "eye appeal".

One coin I bought in 2005 was in an AU-58 holder when I bought it the first time from Goldberg.  They couldn't find it and refunded my money.  In their next auction a few months later, the same coin shows up in the current MS-61 holder.  The consigner was paid and then tried to sell the coin again, double dipping.  He just happened to get caught because I wanted the coin and recognized it as the one I bought.

For this coin, either grade could be "correct".  The coin (1847 Mexico 4R) is untoned but looks like it has been dipped on the obverse.  The reverse is semi or fully PL.  I don't see any indication of wear, but there could be some, somewhere.

So let me get this straight, and in writing. Ira and Larry Goldberg sold you a coin “at auction” as a AU58, “lost it”, and subsequently put it up for auction again as a MS61? Does that sound even marginally ethical to you? I know that under Pennsylvania law, that’s fraud per se, and a CRIME. No wonder Goldberg doesn’t call Pennsylvania home. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 12/15/2022 at 5:14 PM, VKurtB said:

So let me get this straight, and in writing. Ira and Larry Goldberg sold you a coin “at auction” as a AU58, “lost it”, and subsequently put it up for auction again as a MS61? Does that sound even marginally ethical to you? I know that under Pennsylvania law, that’s fraud per se, and a CRIME. No wonder Goldberg doesn’t call Pennsylvania home. 

It wasn't intentional by Goldberg, and I did not mean to make it sound that way.

I spoke to Ira or Larry (don't remember which one) and his first question was, how did we pay the consignor and send the coin back?  That's what happened.

Goldberg made an error somehow, where whoever was in charge on inventory control sent the coin back while whoever was in charge of paying consignors paid them.  No clue how that happened.

The consignor was dishonest for trying to sell the same coin twice and tried to hide it by re-grading the coin.  If someone is going to do that, they should at least consign it somewhere else, not the same place.

[VKurtB]

On 12/15/2022 at 4:54 PM, World Colonial said:

It wasn't intentional by Goldberg, and I did not mean to make it sound that way.

I spoke to Ira or Larry (don't remember which one) and his first question was, how did we pay the consignor and send the coin back?  That's what happened.

Goldberg made an error somehow, where whoever was in charge on inventory control sent the coin back while whoever was in charge of paying consignors paid them.  No clue how that happened.

The consignor was dishonest for trying to sell the same coin twice and tried to hide it by re-grading the coin.  If someone is going to do that, they should at least consign it somewhere else, not the same place.

So Goldberg didn’t have physical custody? A consignor did? I wasn’t aware dealers sold coins they do not possess. That strikes me as unethical too. 
 

You must understand that as a 13-year employee of the Pennsylvania General Assembly who is aware of the highly restrictive nature of Pennsylvania auction law, I get REALLY worked up over this junk. 

We have an ANA WFoM coming up in Pennsylvania in 2023 AND 2025, and some people obviously need to up their auctioning ethical game. My home state treats auctioneering misdeeds as literal crimes. (Including “house” and “shill” bidding.)

Edited December 15, 2022 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 12/15/2022 at 6:00 PM, VKurtB said:

So Goldberg didn’t have physical custody? A consignor did? I wasn’t aware dealers sold coins they do not possess. That strikes me as unethical too. 

I assume they had custody until the end of the sale, but sent it back to the consignor in error.  This is a guess, not fact.  All I know for certain is when I paid for it, they couldn't find it, refunded me, and then it shows up again.

Sorry, I didn't intend to imply Goldberg did anything wrong.

[VKurtB]

On 12/15/2022 at 5:09 PM, World Colonial said:

I assume they had custody until the end of the sale, but sent it back to the consignor in error.  This is a guess, not fact.  All I know for certain is when I paid for it, they couldn't find it, refunded me, and then it shows up again.

Sorry, I didn't intend to imply Goldberg did anything wrong.

They may have not intended to, but they DID do something wrong. As long as nobody was injured, it’s no harm, no foul. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/15/2022 at 5:54 PM, World Colonial said:

The consignor was dishonest for trying to sell the same coin twice and tried to hide it by re-grading the coin.  If someone is going to do that, they should at least consign it somewhere else, not the same place.

So he was the guilty party....hope someone made him pay the price somehow for his double-dealing.