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Dan Carr
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Started by J P M,

63 posts in this topic

Lem E

Lem E

Posted
Posted

I got the email today about the new DC inventory and looked at it earlier. Now almost 75% of that stuff is sold or on hold. It is amazing how quick the new stock at that place goes.

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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted (edited)

I do have two of the Moonlight Mint tokens, and they were a little more than a comparable common date BU grade coin struck by the US mint, and some go for quite a lot. There is a very high demand for these overstrikes/tokens in general and they usually sell out pretty quickly unless significantly overpriced.

As I'm sure you know there is some controversy about these overstrike pieces or "tokens" and if they comply with applicable federal laws. Most, including me, believe they do comply with these laws. But there are some that do not.

Edited by EagleRJO
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Greenstang

Greenstang

Posted
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One interesting fact about Dan Carr is that, whether you call his coins reproductions or counterfeits, is that he is allowed to sell them on eBay. Anyone else would have the listings removed as it is against eBay policy to sell counterfeits or reproductions.

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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
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The US Mint is okay with what Dan Carr is producing, as they are not considered counterfeits by them. Even though he was already producing these overstrikes, the US Mint asked Dan Carr to submit an official finalist design for the new Sacagawea dollar, and he actually designed the 2001 New York and 2001 Rhode Island state quarters for the US Mint. I think how the Treasury Dept. views the overstrikes/tokens really ends the debate about if these are "counterfeits".

Also AANACS will authenticate and grade the Dan Carr overstrike tokens/coins, and the funny thing is that there actually are unauthorized copies or "counterfeits" of his coins. 😜 

http://www.moonlightmint.com/fakes.htm

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tj96

tj96

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 7:39 AM, Greenstang said:

One interesting fact about Dan Carr is that, whether you call his coins reproductions or counterfeits, is that he is allowed to sell them on eBay. Anyone else would have the listings removed as it is against eBay policy to sell counterfeits or reproductions.

His coins are not reproductions or counterfeits they are over-strikes on genuine US coins.

Edited by tj96
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tj96

tj96

Posted
Posted
On 11/5/2022 at 10:56 AM, RWB said:

The items in question are counterfeit coins according to US law. Look it up.

Not as far as the Secret Service is concerned.  Look it up.

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VKurtB

VKurtB

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 11:58 AM, tj96 said:

Not as far as the Secret Service is concerned.  Look it up.

Roger is wrong and he always has been on this subject. Larry too. Both write toward what they WISH WERE TRUE. They’re allowed to wish all they like. But they’re wrong. 
 

The ANA has spoken. 
The Bureau of the Mint of the U.S. Treasury has spoken.

Even the U.S. Attorney’s office has spoken. None agree with Roger or Larry. 

Edited by VKurtB
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tj96

tj96

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 1:05 PM, VKurtB said:

Roger is wrong and he always has been on this subject. Larry too. Both write toward what they WISH WERE TRUE. They’re allowed to wish all they like. But they’re wrong. 
 

The ANA has spoken. 
The Bureau of the Mint of the U.S. Treasury has spoken.

Even the U.S. Attorney’s office has spoken. None agree with Roger or Larry. 

SLAM....., DUNK!!!!!  Nuff said!

Edited by tj96
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VKurtB

VKurtB

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Posted (edited)

In addition to attempting to read statutes, one needs to understand the Rules of Statutory Construction, which inform the reader HOW to read statutes. It is an art known to legislators and litigators, but apparently precious few authors of numismatic volumes. Sadly enough though, some judges and justices have forgotten their Rules of Statutory Construction as well, including the majority of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. 

Edited by VKurtB
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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 10:56 AM, RWB said:

The items in question are counterfeit coins according to US law. Look it up.

Not as far as Federal laws (18 US §485 and 15 US §2101), interpretations by Federal courts, the Treasury Dept, Secret Service and US Mint is concerned. Look it up

So the Moonlight Mint and Dan Carr are producing counterfeits, then the US Mint asks Dan to design several coins for them. Yea right, and I have a bridge to sell you.

Edited by EagleRJO
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ldhair

ldhair

Posted
Posted
On 11/5/2022 at 1:14 PM, EagleRJO said:

@ldhairIm just curious which ones you think are legit and which are counterfeits.

There is nothing about my opinion/post that should be hard to understand. 

I like his original work but it stops there. 

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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 3:36 PM, ldhair said:

There is nothing about my opinion/post that should be hard to understand. 

I like his original work but it stops there. 

It's not clear where you draw the line and why. That should be a straightforward question that I am just curious about. I have not looked at all his overstrikes/tokens, so I was mostly curious if Dan didn't follow what he did with earlier ones of only striking tokens that were never struck by the US mint, and would not "fool the average collector". Not to start a disagreement as I think my opinions above are clear.

There would be no reason to go around in circles. I can respect opposing opinions even if I don't agree with them when done in a respectful way. I think that is a hallmark of using a scientific approach to evaluating issues related to coins.

1999 USvM8nt Letter to Carr.jpg

Edited by EagleRJO
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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

Anything that purports by its appearance OR weight & shape to be a US coin is a counterfeit -- intent is implicit in its production. The ONLY exception is described in the Hobby Protection Act.

The salient appearance features are: a US monetary denomination and statement "United States of America." Composition is irrelevant. Additionally, if an item is promoted as being equivalent to or a substitute for legal US currency it is also covered by counterfeiting law. (This is the main thing that got Von Nuthouse in jail.) EVERY participant at EVERY level should be prosecuted - flea market to owners of a coin press who use it for counterfeiting.

Anyone, even those with 5th-grade elementary school skills, can make all the ugly medals they want.

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ldhair

ldhair

Posted
Posted
On 11/5/2022 at 2:54 PM, EagleRJO said:

It's not clear where you draw the line and why. That should be a straightforward question that I am just curious about. I have not looked at all his overstrikes/tokens, so I was mostly curious if Dan didn't follow what he did with earlier ones of only striking tokens that were never struck by the US mint, and would not "fool the average collector". Not to start a disagreement as I think my opinions above are clear.

There would be no reason to go around in circles. I can respect opposing opinions even if I don't agree with them when done in a respectful way. I think that is a hallmark of using a scientific approach to evaluating issues related to coins.

I don't do dog fights. My opinion is clear to anyone that understands the topic. 

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J P M

J P M

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Posted

Easy guys, I did not want to start a war. :facepalm: I was just amazed at all the different denominations of the past century of coins he is making. They look too real for the uneducated collector and there are many of them out there . The only thing I would be afraid of is someone dishonest cracking out a slab and trying to sell it as a real deal. 

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VKurtB

VKurtB

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 4:07 PM, RWB said:

(This is the main thing that got Von Nuthouse in jail.)

This statement by Roger was at one time true. However, the Treasury Department has REVERSED ITSELF on this matter and all of the Von Nuthouse coins are 100% completely legal for quite some time now. The ones that were confiscated (many many of them) have now been returned to their previous owners. In fact, there is now a very comprehensive self / vanity published book (a concept with which both RWB and physics-fan3.14 are INTIMATELY familiar) that tells the entire tale of so-called Liberty dollars AND THEIR RELATED ITEMS. All of which WOULD BE illegal to sell (you cannot profit off a federal crime) and keep the proceeds, IF they were still considered to be illegal. Bernie’s coins are not illegal and neither are Dan’s. 
 

The ONLY matter of OPINION out there is whether what the government has decided regarding these things was wise or smart. But to call EITHER OF THEM illegal is to outright lie. 

Edited by VKurtB
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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 5:07 PM, RWB said:

Additionally, if an item is promoted as being equivalent to or a substitute for legal US currency it is also covered by counterfeiting law. (This is the main thing that got Von Nuthouse in jail.)

Bernard von NotHaus was producing coins (e.g. Liberty Dollars) with years and marks resembling legal tender coins struck by the US mint, and actually in competition with the US Mint as alternate legal tender coins for Hawaii as I understand it.

I agree that the original NotHaus coins were counterfeits, and they were later changed in concept to be some kind of private currency. I"m not sure if the new coins will be legit. But that is NOT what the Moonlight Mint Produces.

The Moonlight Mint does NOT strike any coins produced by the US mint. I have a letter or email verifying that (I think from the Treasury Dept.) which I can post when I get my computer back. Also see the attached Coin Week article about the original NotHouse counterfeits, a recent article from that mint, snd a Moonlight Mint web page with some basic info.

https://coinweek.com/coins/news/bernard-von-nothaus-sentenced-probation-liberty-dollar-conviction/

http://bernardvonnothaus.org/history-liberty-dollar/

http://www.moonlightmint.com/

Edited by EagleRJO
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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/5/2022 at 7:07 PM, J P M said:

Easy guys, I did not want to start a war. :facepalm: I was just amazed at all the different denominations of the past century of coins he is making. They look too real for the uneducated collector and there are many of them out there . The only thing I would be afraid of is someone dishonest cracking out a slab and trying to sell it as a real deal. 

It's all good, just a friendly disagreement (so far), which is part of scientific evaluations. And I am not aware of any overstrikes/tokens by Carr with years/marks that were struck by the US mint, unless it's a more recent one and why I was asking ldhair about that.

[P.S. a scientific evaluation of any technical issue includes looking at opposing views or data and determining if it's correct, plausible, implausible or incorrect]

Edited by EagleRJO
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VKurtB

VKurtB

Posted
Posted
On 11/5/2022 at 7:34 PM, EagleRJO said:

It's all good, just a friendly disagreement (so far), which is part of scientific evaluations. And I am not aware of any overstrikes/tokens by Carr with years/marks that were struck by the US mint, unless it's a more recent one and why I was asking ldhair about that.

There are none. No need to search. All Carr fantasy date overstrikes feature dates that do not exist on real numismatic items. 

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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted

I think it would help to post the attached also. Certified as a genuine tolken or "overstrike". I don't have my RB handy but I think 1908 was the Indian head small cent.

s-l400.jpg

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J P M

J P M

Posted
  • Author
Posted
On 11/6/2022 at 2:59 AM, EagleRJO said:

I think it would help to post the attached also. Certified as a genuine tolken or "overstrike". I don't have my RB handy but I think 1908 was the Indian head small cent.

s-l400.jpg

I think there was a 1907 Lincoln for sale at NE. That would fit right in with your 1908

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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 11/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, J P M said:

I think there was a 1907 Lincoln for sale at NE. That would fit right in with your 1908

190i7 is another year where Carr produced a Lincoln Cent Overstrike. While the US mint had produced an Indian head small cent

Edited by EagleRJO
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