Really Old U.S Proof Sets 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

If any member is interested in a 1869, 1880, 1881 or 1885 Proof Set, you may want to check out the listing (hot off the press) at northeastcoin.com.

I am not acquainted with the dialect used, but reference is made to "thick slab gen 4 NGC holders w/CAC stickers."

[RWB]

1880 set is nice but beware of PR62 Trade and Morgan dollars. They are probably filled with hairlines from wiping.

[Henri Charriere]

@RWB:

Many thanks for weighing in. I just revisited the ad because I recall reading something which likely only someone acquainted with the year would know about.  It read:  "They are complete sets with the understandable exception of the 1885 set, which is of course lacking the Trade Dollar." (Italics mine.)  If memory serves, the U.S. mint did not begin issuing standard proof "sets" until 1936. Any "set" compiled before that time was an endeavor assumed by the individual collector.

 

[RWB]

Sets were first sold in 1858, but it was not until 1950 that one could buy only complete sets. Until then sets - organized as minor, silver and gold, or silver+minor, or everything - and individual coins could be bought. Below is a circular from 1859. Other circulars included more detail including individual master coin prices. Your will find more information in by book, United States Proof Coins 1936-1942.

Edited September 17, 2022 by RWB

[RWB]

1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were produced as medals and were not coins. Thus, they were not included in any proof sets after 1879. Thousands of collectors, however, bought the individual proof Trade dollars and considered them part of a complete silver set.

[Henri Charriere]

The reason why 1936 sticks in my mind is because in Red Books from the 1960's that's the first year listed under Proof Sets, if I am not mistaken. My brother acquired a 1950 set; that was his year of birth. I picked up two, a 1952, for $60., and a 1954, for $30. I distinctly recall they were flat packs (w/o carbon spots). I have no idea what they would be worth today.

[Edit:  Correction... The assertion my brother picked up his birth-year set (1950) was based on faulty memory. Neither of us could find our birth years, 1950/1951, and settled for the '52 and '54, as brought out in a subsequent thread circa 11/20/2022.]

Edited November 20, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Revision

[World Colonial]

On 9/17/2022 at 10:11 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

The reason why 1936 sticks in my mind is because in Red Books from the 1960's that's the first year listed under Proof Sets, if I am not mistaken. 

Even before TPG starting in 1986 after which more sets were broken up, there weren't many pre-1936 full sets available.  The 1936 set is hardly cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than any set dated earlier even without the gold coinage.  I presume this is the reason for the Red Book format.

[Sandon]

   The John Jay Pittman collection, sold in 1997-98, included proof sets for each of the years from 1843 through 1846, complete from the proof only half cent through the ten-dollar gold piece!  Each of these sets was housed in a blue velvet lined wooden case covered in burgundy Morocco leather.  The 1844 set was accompanied by a price list printed by Manley & Orr of 45 Chestnut St., Philadelphia, PA entitled "Complete Series of Coins of the United States of America", listing each of the coins at its face value and adding $3.085 for the case, for a total cost of $22 for the set.  David Akers, who catalogued and sold this magnificent collection, understood that Pittman had purchased the 1846 set in its entirety as an original set in its case of issue and that the 1843 and 44 sets "consisted of original copper and silver sets paired with original gold sets, but without the certainty that the copper and silver sets actually belonged with the gold sets with which they were paired." Catalog of The John Jay Pittman Collection, Part Two, at p.167 (Lot 1712, the 1846 proof set).  Pittman had mostly assembled the 1845 set, but the gold coins as a group and the half dime, dime and quarter as a group had likely each been from separate original sets. See Catalog Part One, lots 832-833, Catalog Part Two, Lots 1711-1712.

   It appears that the mint did issue a few complete proof sets in the years prior to 1859, as well as groups and individual pieces of minor and silver coins and gold coins.  It doesn't appear, though, that many collectors wanted them at that time or that they were available to the general public.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Sandon

[RWB]

"Sets" simply meant one of each coin denomination, or whatever the buyer wanted it to be. It was not until 1955 when they were packaged all together in the same sealed holder. The same began for mint sets in 1947, but the cardboard holders were not really equivalent.

[zadok]

...and then there r the few documented presentation sets ordered n prepared by the US MInt....

[Bignubnumismatics]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:57 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@RWB:

Many thanks for weighing in. I just revisited the ad because I recall reading something which likely only someone acquainted with the year would know about.  It read:  "They are complete sets with the understandable exception of the 1885 set, which is of course lacking the Trade Dollar." (Italics mine.)  If memory serves, the U.S. mint did not begin issuing standard proof "sets" until 1936. Any "set" compiled before that time was an endeavor assumed by the individual collector.

 

I suggest looking through old auction catalogs from the 1860s. many mention proof sets broken up between minor proof sets, and full proof sets. While not packaged together until the mid-late 1800s (and those are mostly 'third-party' velvet lined boxes/cases like maundy sets) they were still often purchased together.

[Henri Charriere]

[There's got to be a newbie sitting out there somewhere thinking, surely the U.S. Mint was not minting coins and distributing them in cardboard?  Yes, mate, and not a quality cardboard either!  The closest equivalent I can think of is repurposed or recycled cardboard, with all four sides folded up, and taped together. And that's the way it was. Nobody I know, excepting strict constructionists objected to the inevitable substitution for more traditional lucite display cases, if for no other reason than protection of the coins from the ravages of inhospitable (less than ideal) storage conditions, and exposure to the elements of heat, moisture, and gases.  There is even a question today as to the suitability of slabs for long-term storage.]

Edited September 19, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing: typo.

[Conder101]

On 9/17/2022 at 10:11 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I picked up two, a 1952, for $60., and a 1954, for $30. I distinctly recall they were flat packs (w/o carbon spots).

Flat pack proof sets did not begin until mid 1955.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:32 AM, Conder101 said:

Flat pack proof sets did not begin until mid 1955.

They were square (3" X 3"?) cardboard boxed sets containing proof coins in filmy glassine envelopes stapled one atop the other at the top. I bought them at Bridandi's before they moved to West 44th [and West 57th Streets.  I must defend what little reputation and credibility I have left here on this Forum.  Surely, someone here can confirm my recollection is correct! I believe the boxes were plain and marked 1952 and 1954 with a pencil; I traced those markings with a ballpoint pen. Primitive by today's standards.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing: word omission. Bold font.

[RWB]

1955 proofs were issued both ways.

The little boxes were also used for medals.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:51 PM, RWB said:

1955 proofs were issued both ways.

The little boxes were also used for medals.

This suggests a transition. I remember what I saw.  I remember what I paid for them.  Hard to believe I am the only member who either had an early 1950's set or remembers what they looked like.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Usual die polishing: correct typo.

[Conder101]

You're right about the boxed sets, but I believe you have the size of the boxes a little large.  I think closer to 2 1/2 inches square.  They were sold in those boxes by the Mint from 1936 to 42 and from 1950 to mid 1955, and then they went to the flat pack pliofim sets that continued through 1964.  The 1955 sets came both ways.

This came up because you said you distinctly remember the 52 and 54 sets you bought as being flat packs. They had to be box sets, and your later description is that of boxed sets.

[Frank]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

This suggests a transition. I remember what I saw.  I remember what I paid for them.  Hard to believe I am the only member who either had an early 1950's set or remembers what they looked like.

Yes, and no.

 

No: You are not the only one to remember the box sets.

 

Yes: It was a transition, 1955 came both ways.  

The box sets were popular in the '60s and 1970's.

There was a strong market for 'sealed' box sets.

 

That is, until someone finally opened on box and found it was full of metal washers, no coins.

 

Thereafter all boxes were opened.

If you find a sealed box, I wouldn't buy it unless it was opened for inspection.

Even it the owner claimed that they got it from the mint.

 

[Henri Charriere]

@Frank:

Come to think of it, my two sets were unopened, taped shut with that yellow tape shippers use with nylon threads running through it.  I do not recall if the proprietor of the coin shop opened them for me for inspection or whether I took delivery of them, as is.

[VKurtB]

On 9/28/2022 at 8:22 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

@Frank:

Come to think of it, my two sets were unopened, taped shut with that yellow tape shippers use with nylon threads running through it.  I do not recall if the proprietor of the coin shop opened them for me for inspection or whether I took delivery of them, as is.

Tah Dahhhh:

 

1951 Boxed Proof Set

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:48 AM, VKurtB said:

Tah Dahhhh:

 

1951 Boxed Proof Set

Voila!  Perhaps I misspoke and meant "flat box."  (Pre-zip code: today that would be Bronx, N. Y. 10467.  Do parcels from the Mint state they are coming from the Mint, or are they more discreet?)

That is my birth year. I never was able to locate a 1951 U.S. Proof Set and am too old to care now. 

[VKurtB]

On 9/28/2022 at 8:57 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Voila!  Perhaps I misspoke and meant "flat box."  (Pre-zip code: today that would be Bronx, N. Y. 10467.  Do parcels from the Mint state they are coming from the Mint, or are they more discreet?)

That is my birth year. I never was able to locate a 1951 U.S. Proof Set and am too old to care now. 

They have become more discreet, but not until quite recently. Maybe 10 years. 

[VKurtB]

I also own a British 1951 proof set in original packaging that used to be part of Ken Bressett’s collection. I bought it at auction this year at Colorado Springs, and Ken autographed it for me at Rosemont. I also got the red leather case for a British 1937 silver only proof set, without coins. Now to fill it….

Edited September 28, 2022 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:11 AM, VKurtB said:

....I also got the red leather case for a British 1937 silver only proof set, without coins. Now to fill it….

No sense letting a beautiful, how you say, Rouge, leather presentation case go to waste. Why not fill it will Haitian gourdes?  It'd be a lot cheaper.   

[VKurtB]

On 9/28/2022 at 6:14 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

No sense letting a beautiful, how you say, Rouge, leather presentation case go to waste. Why not fill it will Haitian gourdes?  It'd be a lot cheaper.   

You’d be amazed how often the 1937 50% silver proofs show up in foreign coin boxes at shows. But they show up even more at BRITISH COIN SHOWS! One is on the docket for 2023, AFTER the St.Moritz/Berlin trip. But I might find one or more of them in Berlin. Berlin and Switzerland in winter - staring uncomfortably chilly accommodations square in the eyeballs. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:16 AM, Frank said:

 The box sets were popular in the '60s and 1970's.

There was a strong market for 'sealed' box sets.

That is, until someone finally opened on box and found it was full of metal washers, no coins.

Thereafter all boxes were opened.

If you find a sealed box, I wouldn't buy it unless it was opened for inspection.

On reflection, this is an important post.  I do not know that I would buy anything sight-seen, that was in fact, sight-unseen. Those old flimsy cardboard boxes contained proof coins, many sporting "carbon spots."  (It seems that term has fallen from disuse in the numismatic lexicon.) I recall dealers shrugging that off as normal for that time period, but you raise a good point: since you are not buying the cardboard box, it prevails on you to assert your right to actually see what it is you're buying.

[I once tried to sell a silver bar to a newly-opened WE BUY GOLD AND SILVER place, and when the gentleman said he had to "test," it either by boring (or less intrusive means) I squawked: "That's why bars have recognized hallmarks, never mind standard weights and measures!"

Edited November 20, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Correct typo.

[Frank]

agreed.

 

sight seen only

[rrantique]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:32 AM, Conder101 said:

Flat pack proof sets did not begin until mid 1955.

Got one of those . See if I can dig it out for a photo.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:45 PM, rrantique said:

Got one of those . See if I can dig it out for a photo.

Note:  Up a few posts on this thread, member VKurtB has posted an exterior of a 1951 box with the same penciled marking that were present on mine for 1952 and 1954.

[VKurtB]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:42 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Note:  Up a few posts on this thread, member VKurtB has posted an exterior of a 1951 box with the same penciled marking that were present on mine for 1952 and 1954.

I have both the box version AND the flat pack version of the 1955 proof sets. The real scam is people offering “still sealed” brown envelope proof sets from 1955-1964. Yes, the BOX might be still sealed, but the brown envelopes NEVER WERE SEALED. They were just unsealed as shipped. NEVER pay a premium for a sealed set. It will never contain special coins such as cameos. It’s a nasty scam, and eBay sellers are infamous for it. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by VKurtB