Obtaining a Spanish-American Silver Dollar 1 1

[EagleRJO]

I was thinking about adding an early silver dollar to the collection (maybe more down the road) before the US started producing those coins in 1794, but one that was adopted by the US as legal tender which was the Spanish 8 Reales, I think starting in July of 1785, called a Spanish Milled Dollar or Pieces of Eight.

So, it looks like to fit into that criteria I should look into Spanish Colony 8 Reales dated between 1786 and 1793, possibly starting with an 1788 Spanish 8 Reales maybe struck at the Mexico mint as an option that appears to have good availability and reasonable cost for say an XF grade coin.

SPANISH COLONY 8 Reales KM 106.2a Values | NGC (www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/mexico-spanish-colony-8-reales-km-106.2a-1785-1789-cuid-1119414-duid-1447131)

Any thoughts or suggestions before I start digging in? Also, what about die varieties (in English) if I decide to look at some raw ones?

Edited September 16, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

I would check to see what Reales are real first. I was told long ago they are copied more than any other coin. It could have been bad information but I would still check. Seeing you buy mostly ungraded coins.

[RWB]

Any Spanish-American Charles portrait 8 reale should do. Dates used to fix the US dollar coin included those from the 1770s to 1791. Here's a sample from 1801.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:46 AM, RWB said:

Any Spanish-American Charles portrait 8 reale should do. Dates used to fix the US dollar coin included those from the 1770s to 1791. Here's a sample from 1801.

Very interesting.  Looks like measurements and calculations for 8 Reales coins to compare that to what the US was producing to be on par with what was commonly accepted currency worldwide at the time and required by the 1792 Coinage Act.  Interesting that you can readily locate that to post also. 

On 9/14/2022 at 6:09 AM, J P M said:

I would check to see what Reales are real first. I was told long ago they are copied more than any other coin. It could have been bad information but I would still check. Seeing you buy mostly ungraded coins.

You should know me by now that raw coins are the hands-down (and hands-on) favorite for me, and that I'm willing to put in the time and effort to research and check out these coins, which I actually find enjoyable, and accept that there is added risk.  They are not in the top 50, but like most raw older coins they are counterfeited which is party why I am limiting the range to lesser valued 8 Reales I was asking about, and also asking about information and die varieties for the Spanish Colony 8 Reales dated between 1786 and 1793, and the 1788 Spanish 8 Reales in particular.

[RWB]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:03 AM, EagleRJO said:

Interesting that you can readily locate that to post also. 

I've built, and continue to build), a large database of archival information. There is a lot more that has not been digitized and/or transcribed. Also, there is a document prepared by Hamilton (I think) that shows the actual coin dates used to establish the initial content of the US silver dollar.

Edited September 15, 2022 by RWB

[EagleRJO]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:15 AM, RWB said:

Also, there is a document prepared by Hamilton (I think) that shows the actual coin dates used to establish the initial content of the US silver dollar.

That would be very interesting to check out.  Apparently, Alexander Hamilton [Secretary of the Treasury back then] was very involved in early US coins, and in particular using the Spanish milled dollar as the basis for the initial specs of US silver dollars and establishing the bi-metallic money standard of the US in 1792, with the US silver dollar set as containing 371-1/4 grains of fine silver and a gold-silver ratio of 15. I did find an old paper that discussed that titled "The Spanish Dollar and the Colonial Shilling" by W. G. Sumner dated July 1898.

Edited September 17, 2022 by EagleRJO

[World Colonial]

If you are interested in die variety attribution, I have Yonaka's reference covering all five denominations from Mexico.  I bought it directly from him.  It's hard cover and I think I paid $150 for it new.

Can't remember if you said you have access to any larger coins shows.  I've never asked about these coins (since I don't collect it) but seen plenty at the national ones I have attended. 

I don't visit local dealers either but would expect that many would carry it now, as it's widely collected.

You should have plenty of supply from which to choose generically for the two types (Charles III and Charles IV) though I don't know the availability of specific dates. 

[EagleRJO]

Thanks @World Colonialif it's the one that covers die varieties from the Mexico mint between 1772-1821 it might be a very good resource to have. I haven't really started looking seriously at coins, except for just some internet surfing and basic comparisons, as I want to know more about the coins and identifying genuine pieces before I purchase any.

Like for example I saw the attached raw 1793 Mexico Spanish Colony 8 Reales coin listed for a little over $300 which seems high, unless it's a little higher grade than I think.  It's also hard to get a handle on grading these coins because slabbed examples have been about one grade higher than I would have thought, and I don't know if TPGs are making allowances for possibly weak strikes or something. I would think the attached is probably a VF+ to XF, but I see similar condition slabbed ones graded XF+.  I have a copy of the "Standard Catalog of World Coins, 1701-1800" on the way which I hope will shed some light on that.

Also, from what I can see with limited knowledge it looks basically legit comparing it to an NGC example for the same year, but I noticed minor variations, particularly with the positions of the lettering on the reverse, which may be because it's a different die than the NGC example. That book should may help there.

I do plan on going to the NYINC coin show in January, and hopefully I will be a little more knowledgeable about these coins to shop for one or two there in addition to some Morgans I hope to pick up.

Edited September 18, 2022 by EagleRJO

[World Colonial]

Yonaka's reference doesn't have much on counterfeit detection.  It's a topic I recommended to him for future updates on all three books of his I own.

On the attached image, it's consistent with XF+.  I think it's a nice coin, but I don't know the current prices which might have moved up noticeably since 2020.  Sometime shortly before or at the beginning of the pandemic, an eBay seller had a 1763 Mexico 8R NGC AU-58 for $895.  A very nice coin for a very good price, but I didn't buy it because I had a lot of expenses at the time and I almost never use funds from savings to buy coins, only out of current income. This was cheap for the time but now a comparable one is $1500+.  It was the ideal type coin and I should have bought it.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:30 PM, World Colonial said:

Yonaka's reference doesn't have much on counterfeit detection.  It's a topic I recommended to him for future updates on all three books of his I own.

Just having the dies used is a huge help there, but for counterfeit detection I also ordered a copy of "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-Real Reales" 2014 by Robert Gurney which I understand is the go-to counterfeit reference for these coins.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/14/2022 at 6:09 AM, J P M said:

I was told long ago they are copied more than any other coin. It could have been bad information but I would still check.

@J P Mits starting to look like that was good info even if these coins are not on the NGC or PCGS top counterfeit lists. I am reading up on these coins, including the book by Gurney and he states ...

Quote

The Spanish-American milled dollar, or piece-of-eight, is one of the most extensively counterfeited coins of the colonial, federalist and modern eras

It looks like many of these were produced and circulated in Asia, and just may not have reached the US yet or are raw in collections which haven't been submitted to the TPGs so it doesn't make their top lists.

Edited September 23, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 9/23/2022 at 3:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

@J P Mits starting to look like that was good info even if these coins are not on the NGC or PCGS top counterfeit lists. I am reading up on these coins, including the book by Gurney and he states ...

It looks like many of these were produced and circulated in Asia, and just may not have reached the US yet or are raw in collections which haven't been submitted to the TPGs so it doesn't make their top lists.

I would think there may be a few out there in collections sitting next to the 1776 continentals 

Edited September 24, 2022 by J P M