A reminder: Auction companies no longer "grade" coins. 1 1

[RWB]

Auctions are for selling. Long ago auction companies graded and examined coins before listing them. Today, a glance at a slab label is about it. The rest is a seller's job of building a story and enticing potential buyers.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/26/2022 at 7:08 PM, RWB said:

Auctions are for selling. Long ago auction companies graded and examined coins before listing them. Today, a glance at a slab label is about it. The rest is a seller's job of building a story and enticing potential buyers.

Don't you think things are BETTER for the buyer and seller compared to when you needed coins graded estimate-wise by catalogers like with Menjou, Price, Eliasburg, etc ? 

[RWB]

It is an improvement largely because the auction companies do not have the advantage of manipulating the stated condition of the coin. The good ones now put more time into better descriptions. But it also greatly reduces the need for buyer knowledge in coin grading. Plastic holders also limit complete examination of coins by bidders.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:09 AM, RWB said:

It is an improvement largely because the auction companies do not have the advantage of manipulating the stated condition of the coin. The good ones now put more time into better descriptions. But it also greatly reduces the need for buyer knowledge in coin grading. Plastic holders also limit complete examination of coins by bidders.

True, but I'm not sure I have the time or inclination to learn grading...go to seminars...spend the time reading....etc.  Even if I educated myself, I might get caught buying a counterfeit coin that costs me thousands.

So....I do think that TPG grading has expanded the universe for those who simply don't want to become good at grading....or more like me....simply don't have the time.

Same thing with astronomy in a way:  people like myself used to get frustrated having to find objects manually and with maps, etc.  Today, you get a computerized scope or one with tracking/finding and you just punch some buttons and the scope slews to wherever you go.

Instead of having to fumble with maps in the cold and not know where to point the scope when it's late....I hit some buttons and can go to 5 or 6 objects in 3 minutes....then go inside and warm myself. 

[zadok]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

True, but I'm not sure I have the time or inclination to learn grading...go to seminars...spend the time reading....etc.  Even if I educated myself, I might get caught buying a counterfeit coin that costs me thousands.

So....I do think that TPG grading has expanded the universe for those who simply don't want to become good at grading....or more like me....simply don't have the time.

Same thing with astronomy in a way:  people like myself used to get frustrated having to find objects manually and with maps, etc.  Today, you get a computerized scope or one with tracking/finding and you just punch some buttons and the scope slews to wherever you go.

Instead of having to fumble with maps in the cold and not know where to point the scope when it's late....I hit some buttons and can go to 5 or 6 objects in 3 minutes....then go inside and warm myself. 

...time is money, unless ur old like me n then it is fleeting....

[RWB]

But....near-frostbite is part of the fun of astronomy !

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:55 AM, RWB said:

But....near-frostbite is part of the fun of astronomy !

You don't want to handle an $800 eyepiece with thick gloves !! 

[World Colonial]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

True, but I'm not sure I have the time or inclination to learn grading...go to seminars...spend the time reading....etc.  Even if I educated myself, I might get caught buying a counterfeit coin that costs me thousands.

That's mostly because of what you buy and the inflated price level.  The risks you describe were mostly much lower or not a consideration at all, depending upon what the bidder was trying to buy.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:02 PM, World Colonial said:

That's mostly because of what you buy and the inflated price level.  The risks you describe were mostly much lower or not a consideration at all, depending upon what the bidder was trying to buy.

Exactly....if I was a teenager buying inexpensive Whitman-type coins, no great risk.  I buy commemoratives, Saints, other gold coins, Morgans, and other silver coins.  Greater risk of being burned for me without TPG certification.

[World Colonial]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Exactly....if I was a teenager buying inexpensive Whitman-type coins, no great risk.  I buy commemoratives, Saints, other gold coins, Morgans, and other silver coins.  Greater risk of being burned for me without TPG certification.

No one to my knowledge ever bought Whitman-type coins at auction except as bulk lots and these would not have been graded individually.

I believe the time period RWB is referring to was after certification started, like maybe 20 years ago or near it.  Then yes, because certification was already established.

Before certification (about 1986), it all goes back to the inflated price level directly connected with the widespread adoption of TPG.  Prices were a lot lower back then, so the financial risk was a lot less.  Same goes for counterfeits, as it's a lot less profitable to counterfeit lower priced coins, most of the time.  Exceptions exist but not many.

So basically, sort of a circular causality.  Buyers today prefer to buy higher priced coins graded but it's the grading culture which substantially inflates the price level through financialization.  Some Morgans have been expensive to most collectors my entire life and Saints since the mid to late 70's too due to the metal content.  The other coins you identified, in isolation or not at all.

[zadok]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:35 PM, World Colonial said:

No one to my knowledge ever bought Whitman-type coins at auction except as bulk lots and these would not have been graded individually.

I believe the time period RWB is referring to was after certification started, like maybe 20 years ago or near it.  Then yes, because certification was already established.

Before certification (about 1986), it all goes back to the inflated price level directly connected with the widespread adoption of TPG.  Prices were a lot lower back then, so the financial risk was a lot less.  Same goes for counterfeits, as it's a lot less profitable to counterfeit lower priced coins, most of the time.  Exceptions exist but not many.

So basically, sort of a circular causality.  Buyers today prefer to buy higher priced coins graded but it's the grading culture which substantially inflates the price level through financialization.  Some Morgans have been expensive to most collectors my entire life and Saints since the mid to late 70's too due to the metal content.  The other coins you identified, in isolation or not at all.

...observation: i see locally many circulated raw barber n morgan coins still being sold individually at auction, seems lots of collectors still filling holes in their whitman albums, also to a lesser degree indian cents...i personally go to these auctions mostly to buy silver bullion coins n then refine but will buy circ raw semi n key date morgans have certified n flip...on the counterfeits, two schools of thoughts...one, go for the higher dollar coins n max out %...two, go for common date lower dollar coins n volume, lower % but less scrutiny....

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:09 AM, RWB said:

It is an improvement largely because the auction companies do not have the advantage of manipulating the stated condition of the coin. The good ones now put more time into better descriptions. But it also greatly reduces the need for buyer knowledge in coin grading. Plastic holders also limit complete examination of coins by bidders.

To an extent, eBay may be considered an auction site. And I readily concede, owing to the quality of the photograph of the coin put up for bid amid inflexible time constraints, you're either in or out. I obtained a gold 🐓 before I knew anything about them convinced it would grade MS68, then a grade never attained by any TPGS until then. A photograph wouldn't do it justice. Not even my illegal 30-power loupe (which I am sill unable to find) disclosed no PMD of any kind, with complete original mint luster. Tremendous eye appeal! I rushed it off to P---. My long-awaited result: MS64+. Instead of feeling disappointed, I examined it carefully with similarly graded coins to learn from experience. I keep it handy and look at it occasionally. It would most assuredly sit at the pinnacle of my registry set, but its grade automatically disqualifies it from inclusion. It has become on of those enduring mysteries all coin collectors have experienced at one time or another. 

[World Colonial]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:26 AM, zadok said:

...observation: i see locally many circulated raw barber n morgan coins still being sold individually at auction, seems lots of collectors still filling holes in their whitman albums, also to a lesser degree indian cents...i personally go to these auctions mostly to buy silver bullion coins n then refine but will buy circ raw semi n key date morgans have certified n flip...on the counterfeits, two schools of thoughts...one, go for the higher dollar coins n max out %...two, go for common date lower dollar coins n volume, lower % but less scrutiny....

Good to know.  The only ones I have followed are online with firms that are better known.  There are (or were) many auctions on iCollector which I infer are similar to your description, but I have never looked or participated.

[CaptHenway]

I remember when being a numismatist meant, among other things, that you knew how to look at a coin........

[DWLange]

A few people still do...

[Henri Charriere]

To the OP, and membership, I do know how to hold a coin properly. That's got to count for something. 

I have good reason to believe the consensus among the heavyweights on this Forum is Quintus Arrius doesn't know a lick about coins, and justifiably so.  I do not own a single Red Book. I have a vague notion as to what grading is. I am still undecided about fluorescents vs. incancandescents. A highly-respected member politely suggested I have no real understanding of what certification figures and population counts signify (and probably never will). And the most unconscionable sin I ever committed was not buying coins from places overseas I never heard of sight-unseen, but worse: solely on the strength of the certified grade allegedly assigned it. I daresay nobody, certainly not a full-fledged numismatist, or even a  lurker, has ever done that! But I have the coins--and the paperwork substantiating my incredible claim. The damage is done, I'm all worn out. And my wife never not once asked me, What exactly are you doing? I have successfully deluded myself into believing I never once made a mistake. I'm retired. Man, I love this place! And as Henny "take my wife, please" Youngman said, "I LOVE THIS CROWD!"  😉 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Usual die polishing, to-wit: correct typos; spiff things up.

[zadok]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:48 PM, DWLange said:

A few people still do...

...im not sure if u agree or not but it seems to me those that still do r the ones that attend the shows in person....

[DWLange]

That's certainly helps. I expect to be well enough to return to shows with Fall's Baltimore Expo.