1913 $2.50 Gold Indian - Grade? 0

[SpyglassNetwork]

Looking for some estimates what you think it might grade at before I send it in? MS worthy?

It has some incredibly light scratches on the reverse field that only show at certain angles, and none I can see on the obverse anywhere even with a magnifying glass. The cheek is reflective still with no visible markings whatsoever (to my untrained eye). Every feather details seems to be there with no wear that I can see.

But then again I'm still pretty new to this whole collecting and grading thing. Let me know what you think!

Thanks!

[J P M]

Gold is very difficult  to give you a guess on the grade. We would really need very good close up pictures and even then it is still hard to see everything.

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:55 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Gold is very difficult  to give you a guess on the grade. We would really need very good close up pictures and even then it is still hard to see everything.

Yeah I realize that. Most of the pictures on eBay are garbage but I think I might have gotten a gem on this one... Those pictures were as close up as I could get my camera to focus. I might retry my bigger lens to see if I can get closer.

[SpyglassNetwork]

This is about as close as I can get with my current camera.

[Coinbuf]

Assuming that it is genuine, my bet is AU58.

[J P M]

On 7/14/2022 at 12:42 AM, Coinbuf said:

Assuming that it is genuine, my bet is AU58.

I agree with Coinbuf, it has some worn feathers and a mark on the back side of the cheek

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/14/2022 at 2:36 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I agree with Coinbuf, it has some worn feathers and a mark on the back side of the cheek

Which feathers in particular? I do see the top of the feathers on the reverse where there could be a little wear. As for the apparent mark below the cheek, I can't see it with a magnifying glass in person so could just be how the lens reflected?

I didn't realize before I purchased it just how small these $2.50 pieces were, and now I understand how hard it is to photograph!

Thanks for the insight... trying to learn what to watch out for on future purchases!

[J P M]

I think you did a good job getting a picture. The first 3 head dress feathers on the bottom looks like some of the detail has flattened out a bit. There is no reverse close up to look at so I can not say much?

Edited July 14, 2022 by J P Mashoke

[Coinbuf]

My grade opinion is not biased so much on the lower feathers, there are MS63 graded coins that show weakness and poorly defined feathers.   But when I look at the coin overall it seems to have some slight rub on the cheek, the flowers, the lower braid, and on the upper wing of the eagle.   But these coins are very tough to grade from photos, you really have to tilt these into a good light source and see how the light reacts to the surface in order to determine wear from strike weakness.   The difference between AU58 and MS62 is very slight.

[SpyglassNetwork]

Here's a full size reverse.

Thanks for the input and feedback, it is very helpful for looking at them in the future!

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I'll go with AU 58, too.  With lighting as good as you have managed, it isn't "popping."

It looks flat, no character to it, just a gold coin.

Looking at my $2.5 1925 D   MS65+  CAC, on my iPhone, blown up… lots of reflection points are part of the design, and it "pops."

What you should do is go to the NGC Coin Explorer >> Gold Quarter Eagles >> Indian Head $2.5 (1908-1929) >> 1913 $2.5 MS >> View the Registry Image Gallery.

There are 87 coins there, with just about every one of them involving photos, and they range from MS 66 down to AU53, with four as AU Details coins.

Find the coins that look the most like yours, bound your coin within a few of them, and you'll have a good idea of the grade.

Also, the Coin Explorer is a good way to learn about your coin; Jeff Garrett has a write up.  And the coin owners in the Registry might also have write ups in their Owner Comments.

[SpyglassNetwork]

Here is another obverse closeup that while a little fuzzy does show off some of the sparkle and how the edges catch some of the light.

 

[Sandon]

Dear "Spyglass Network",

     Before you formed the opinion that your coin might be a "gem", had you looked at Indian head quarter eagles (not just photos) that have been given "gem" grades (MS 65 or higher) by grading services or experienced collectors or dealers or for that matter at pieces in any uncirculated grade?

   The coin in your photo clearly shows wear on the obverse on the Indian's cheek and headdress and on the reverse on the eagle's neck and the feathers on its facing wing.  I'm attaching a photo of a 1925-D graded all of MS 62 by PCGS so that you may compare the detail in these areas.  The color also seems "off", which could be due to a cleaning, though it can't be told from a photo.  Also, were you aware that Indian head quarter eagles are one of the most frequently counterfeited series of U.S. coins?  The bottom line is that you can't successfully collect coins, especially uncertified ones, without first familiarizing yourself with the appearance of genuine pieces in various states of preservation.  

 

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/14/2022 at 1:44 PM, Sandon said:

Dear "Spyglass Network",

     Before you formed the opinion that your coin might be a "gem", had you looked at Indian head quarter eagles (not just photos) that have been given "gem" grades (MS 65 or higher) by grading services or experienced collectors or dealers or for that matter at pieces in any uncirculated grade?

   The coin in your photo clearly shows wear on the obverse on the Indian's cheek and headdress and on the reverse on the eagle's neck and the feathers on its facing wing.  I'm attaching a photo of a 1925-D graded all of MS 62 by PCGS so that you may compare the detail in these areas.  The color also seems "off", which could be due to a cleaning, though it can't be told from a photo.  Also, were you aware that Indian head quarter eagles are one of the most frequently counterfeited series of U.S. coins?  The bottom line is that you can't successfully collect coins, especially uncertified ones, without first familiarizing yourself with the appearance of genuine pieces in various states of preservation.  

 

To be fair I did somewhat jump in feet first. As far as seeing them in person, no. I have seen and have gold double eagles (pre 33) that are graded and am finding that I may not have done enough research before jumping in on Indians. I was not aware about the counterfeit issue. 

 

As for the cheek, it looks smooth to the naked eye, the whole cheek looks consistent to the naked eye. I do see what you are saying about the head dress part. It's hard to tell for sure but you may be right. 

 

Thanks for the feedback. I will probably take it to my local pawn shop who is familiar with all these coins to verify its authenticity before I try to grade it, if I do decide to try. 

[SpyglassNetwork]

Well the good news is it's been authenticated as real gold, and my local guy believes it is an authentically struck Indian, so at least I have that part resolved 😁

 

I know it's somewhat of a coin toss when grading (pun intended), as you are relying on someone sitting at a desk making their own judgements on it, but I think I'm going to give it a try. 

 

I have a new camera with a macro lens coming early next week so if I can get some better pics with that, I'll post them. 

 

Thanks again for all the feedback... It's has been very helpful when looking for other coins of this type, what to look for/at etc. I'll definitely be even more judicious when buying online (and here I was thinking I was being overly persnickety as it was lol) 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/14/2022 at 4:54 PM, SpyglassNetwork said:

To be fair I did somewhat jump in feet first. As far as seeing them in person, no. I have seen and have gold double eagles (pre 33) that are graded and am finding that I may not have done enough research before jumping in on Indians. I was not aware about the counterfeit issue. 

We've ALL made these mistakes, so don't beat yourself up.  Just make sure you LEARN from them.

And don't forget to take advantage of resources like these forums, especially on Indian Heads and Saints. 

And yeah....you're just learning about them ?  Make sure your next few purchases are either graded or you run it by folks here with some high-res pics. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:34 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

We've ALL made these mistakes, so don't beat yourself up.  Just make sure you LEARN from them.

And don't forget to take advantage of resources like these forums, especially on Indian Heads and Saints. 

And yeah....you're just learning about them ?  Make sure your next few purchases are either graded or you run it by folks here with some high-res pics. 

The problem is getting decent high res pictures is near impossible with these as I've learned first hand... But I've better learned (at least partially from you guys) what to look for in terms of wear markings and common wear spots etc. 

 

I have one more coming in a few days along with a new camera. I'll share more pics when they come in 😁

 

Thanks again for all the feedback and help! 

[VKurtB]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:40 AM, SpyglassNetwork said:

The problem is getting decent high res pictures is near impossible with these as I've learned first hand... But I've better learned (at least partially from you guys) what to look for in terms of wear markings and common wear spots etc. 

 

I have one more coming in a few days along with a new camera. I'll share more pics when they come in 😁

 

Thanks again for all the feedback and help! 

You have learned why I ABSOLUTELY NEVER buy any higher value coins over the Internet. And I do mean NEVER! If it’s not in my hand, my money ain’t leaving my pocket. What I see in your coin are fields that are far too mark free for the devices. Because these coins have raised fields and sunken devices, they are especially prone to being messed with. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by VKurtB

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:47 AM, VKurtB said:

You have learned why I ABSOLUTELY NEVER buy any higher value coins over the Internet. And I do mean NEVER! If it’s not in my hand, my money ain’t leaving my pocket. 

Unfortunately I live in a small town so the internet is basically all I have less a local (reputable and reliable) pawn shop that of late has run dry of supply (no one is selling). The nearest large city is 2 hours away. 

 

So far (believe it or not) I've actually had pretty good luck on eBay less one less than ideal indian and one fake coin I was refunded for. Just have to be careful and check feedbacks etc and be very judicious. I've actually asked for additional pictures multiple times and declined to offer or bid because of them. I don't buy a lot of raw though, usually try to find good deals on certified NGC or pcgs and when I do I immediately take them to my local guy to authenticate as he's very knowledgeable about gold and silver coins. He has one of those fancy $1000+ scanners too. For additional protection I use a credit card so I have an extra layer of protection as well. 

 

Sometimes I'll pick up anacs or icg if they are really good deals, and sometimes I'll send those in to try to crossover. 

[VKurtB]

What are we calling a “large city”? My town has about 8,000 population. But that IS twice the population of Rosemont, Illinois, where my next transaction will happen, other than stuff arriving from various mints directly. There’s a decent sized town about 45 minutes away but the only full service coin dealer there just died. There are now only two “bullion fiends” left. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by VKurtB

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:49 PM, VKurtB said:

What are we calling a “large city”? My town has about 8,000 population. But that IS twice the population of Rosemont, Illinois, where my next transaction will happen, other than stuff arriving from various mints directly. 

My city is about 30k. My neighboring cities 45 minutes away are about 50-60k population, and we have a couple pawn shops. No noteworthy coin shops that I have found yet closer than Las Vegas. I guess I should go check out those other cities sometime... But finding the time when running your own business can be difficult at times. Even 45 minutes away can be a lot. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:56 PM, SpyglassNetwork said:

My city is about 30k. My neighboring cities 45 minutes away are about 50-60k population, and we have a couple pawn shops. No noteworthy coin shops that I have found yet closer than Las Vegas. I guess I should go check out those other cities sometime... But finding the time when running your own business can be difficult at times. Even 45 minutes away can be a lot. 

I use the show circuit. Local and national. 

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:16 PM, VKurtB said:

I use the show circuit. Local and national. 

I'm actually going to check out a coin show this month in Vegas... Will be my first! 

[VKurtB]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:19 PM, SpyglassNetwork said:

I'm actually going to check out a coin show this month in Vegas... Will be my first! 

There are regular shows in Vegas solely for members of “the other guys”. I’ve never partaken, but I’ve heard good things. 

[Nutmeg Coin]

A decent AU, thanks for sharing.  Values on these have gone up.

[SpyglassNetwork]

Here are some new close ups of a new coin I got in at the end of last week. I think this one is definitely superior to the last?

 

It helps that I got a new camera that can take closeups too

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:03 PM, SpyglassNetwork said:

Unfortunately I live in a small town so the internet is basically all I have less a local (reputable and reliable) pawn shop that of late has run dry of supply (no one is selling). The nearest large city is 2 hours away. 

Local, regional, and national coin shows...plus online auction houses like HA and GC.

If you have to pay a bit more via an auction for a graded, certified coin....as long as it's not too high a premium....it's worth the peace of mind on what for you is an "expensive" purchase. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[SpyglassNetwork]

On 7/22/2022 at 11:34 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Local, regional, and national coin shows...plus online auction houses like HA and GC.

If you have to pay a bit more via an auction for a graded, certified coin....as long as it's not too high a premium....it's worth the piece of mind on what for you is an "expensive" purchase. 

Yeah I'm hooked on grading lately... Trying to find good deals on lesser known graders and trying to crossover and/or getting good deals on graded, and even lately trying to find ungraded gems that might make the grade. 

 

I'm finding that these Indians may just be too hard to grade from pictures to be worth the time. I've been looking into Morgan's lately tho. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/22/2022 at 2:38 PM, SpyglassNetwork said:

Yeah I'm hooked on grading lately... Trying to find good deals on lesser known graders and trying to crossover and/or getting good deals on graded, and even lately trying to find ungraded gems that might make the grade.   I'm finding that these Indians may just be too hard to grade from pictures to be worth the time. I've been looking into Morgan's lately tho. 

You need to know something about the seller and make sure you get crystal-clear hi-def pics like the ones on HA and GC to even be in the ballgame.

If the seller was someone you knew or had a good reputation from others who vouched for him, I would be more willing to assume he would pre-screen and not knowingly pass off overgraded or counterfeit pieces.

[EagleRJO]

FYI, if you are getting into coin collecting you should have a Red Book which has really helpful specific grading descriptions for each type of coin at the beginning of those sections, along with a brief history of those coins.