CAC green sticker and the premium dealers place on it 1 1

[Wordsmyth]

Returning collector here from a 20 year hiatus, so needing some seasoned insight. My apologies in advance if this has been discussed elsewhere.... 

Was trying to negotiate a price on a PCGS MS66 SLQ, and the dealer stated that the reason they were charging above the MS66+ price was because of the green sticker. My understanding is that the green sticker (bean) is acknowledgement by a second party that PCGS had graded the coin correctly and that it was solid for the grade. The PCGS list value of the coin was $4500, the ask price was $6250, which eventually they dropped down to $5500. I stopped talking when they insisted because the coin had a CAC sticker a higher premium was warranted.  How is it that a 16$ submission fee to CAC translates into a 1000$ gain for the dealer? I seriously doubt that if I go to sell the coin with the CAC sticker I would get anywhere close to that $1000 back...

Enlighten me please.....

[Coinbuf]

That is the reality of the current market, PCGS dealers want retail++ for PCGS CAC coins, just a simple fact.   And very often CAC approved coins do sell close to and even in excess of some + graded coins.   If you want to collect that brand plastic with the green bean you will be very hard pressed to find a "deal" in this market.    And just to clarify, the CAC green bean signifies that a coin is an A or B coin and not a C coin for the grade assigned by the TPG.    So without seeing this specific coin my guess is that the dealer feels it is a premium A level coin and worth the lofty price tag, as the potential buyer it is up to you to decide if you agree or to walk away and keep looking.

I have found the price guides are way out of whack for the nicer material, they simply cannot keep up with this rapidly rising market.   Bty, did you look up what CAC shows for that coin on their website's price report?   It may be very close to what the asking price is.

[Wordsmyth]

On 7/13/2022 at 3:10 PM, Coinbuf said:

That is the reality of the current market, PCGS dealers want retail++ for PCGS CAC coins, just a simple fact.   And very often CAC approved coins do sell close to and even in excess of some + graded coins.   If you want to collect that brand plastic with the green bean you will be very hard pressed to find a "deal" in this market.    And just to clarify, the CAC green bean signifies that a coin is an A or B coin and not a C coin for the grade assigned by the TPG.    So without seeing this specific coin my guess is that the dealer feels it is a premium A level coin and worth the lofty price tag, as the potential buyer it is up to you to decide if you agree or to walk away and keep looking.

I have found the price guides are way out of whack for the nicer material, they simply cannot keep up with this rapidly rising market.   Bty, did you look up what CAC shows for that coin on their website's price report?   It may be very close to what the asking price is.

Thanks for your kindness in responding, the CAC "surcharge" wrinkle is still new to me.  I'm not really interested in purchasing a specific "brand of plastic" that much although the population reports and price guides are helpful, meaning both NGC and PCGS. I'm flexible with paying above current market 10-15 % if the coin is strong for the grade and appealing to the eye. I do a lot of research; using comparison shopping, and recently realized auction prices to try to be as informed as possible. To answer your question, yes, the CAC website also showed $4500 being the value for the coin same as PCGS. (Type 1 1917-S SLQ MS-66FH ) So your observation that dealers want retail++ appears to be borne out in this instance, disheartening as it is. 

Speaking of research I'll throw another question to you. While researching prices, I discovered this very same PCGS coin  w/same serial number is currently listed on a different dealers site on EBay for $7250  (APMEX)  Is it common practice to sell a coin another dealer has listed and try to make the extra green on the coin, in this case $1000?  Aside from being ethically questionable, doesn't this also seem like it's  "cooking the books" by making artificially jacked up prices seem even more justified?  Or is this just part of how the game works these days   Thanks again...   and yes,  caveat emptor.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Wordsmyth

[CBC]

On 7/14/2022 at 12:55 AM, Wordsmyth said:

I discovered this very same PCGS coin  w/same serial number is currently listed on a different dealers site on EBay for $7250  (APMEX)  Is it common practice to sell a coin another dealer has listed and try to make the extra green on the coin, in this case $1000? 

I typically ignore eBay “list” prices as many (most) are very inflated. Actual completed eBay sales are a useful reference, but I still compare those to other sites like Heritage. And yes, it looks like cross-dealer listings are not uncommon on eBay to artificially inflate price expectations.
 

I have a few coins I acquired several years ago with CAC stickers.  I didn’t search them out, nor did I pay a premium for them but it looks like the game has changed.  

[Wordsmyth]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:50 AM, CBC said:

I typically ignore eBay “list” prices as many (most) are very inflated. Actual completed eBay sales are a useful reference, but I still compare those to other sites like Heritage. And yes, it looks like cross-dealer listings are not uncommon on eBay to artificially inflate price expectations.
 

I have a few coins I acquired several years ago with CAC stickers.  I didn’t search them out, nor did I pay a premium for them but it looks like the game has changed.  

Thanks, this makes the hobby a fair bit more challenging than I remember if from before, and not in a good way. There will always be sharks hoping to find whales to feed on, but this seems almost conspiracy like...  

[Coinbuf]

I agree that the price guides are useful, I only pointed out the PCGS plastic because there are collectors and dealers that only want to deal/buy in PCGS graded coins and then even drill down further to only PCGS coins with the CAC approval.   Many of those collectors are willing, and even advertising, that they will pay above guide prices for those coins.   In effect those folks are creating a price bubble on top of the current rise in coin prices for that combination of plastic and bean.   So a savvy dealer with a high end better date coin with that combination will be likely to know this and willing to wait for the right buyer to squeeze every penny from these coins.   I'm actually rather surprised that the dealer was willing to drop his price by $1,000, makes me wonder how long he has been holding onto it.

I only buy from two or three select ebay sellers, so I spend very little time on that site anymore, however, I do know that you often will find the same coin for sale by two different sellers now and then.   It may be two sellers working together or it could just be one seller who would buy the coin from the first seller and then send to his buyer, in the process making his markup and driving the price up.   I find the practice to be somewhat scummy, but we are talking about coin dealers, and I have met many dealers (and collectors) that have no clue what the term ethics even means.   I pay little attention to these shenanigans as I decide what price I am willing to spend not the seller, if a seller is way out of the ballpark then I walk with no regrets.

 

[Wordsmyth]

On 7/14/2022 at 9:56 AM, Coinbuf said:

I agree that the price guides are useful, I only pointed out the PCGS plastic because there are collectors and dealers that only want to deal/buy in PCGS graded coins and then even drill down further to only PCGS coins with the CAC approval.   Many of those collectors are willing, and even advertising, that they will pay above guide prices for those coins.   In effect those folks are creating a price bubble on top of the current rise in coin prices for that combination of plastic and bean.   So a savvy dealer with a high end better date coin with that combination will be likely to know this and willing to wait for the right buyer to squeeze every penny from these coins.   I'm actually rather surprised that the dealer was willing to drop his price by $1,000, makes me wonder how long he has been holding onto it.

I only buy from two or three select ebay sellers, so I spend very little time on that site anymore, however, I do know that you often will find the same coin for sale by two different sellers now and then.   It may be two sellers working together or it could just be one seller who would buy the coin from the first seller and then send to his buyer, in the process making his markup and driving the price up.   I find the practice to be somewhat scummy, but we are talking about coin dealers, and I have met many dealers (and collectors) that have no clue what the term ethics even means.   I pay little attention to these shenanigans as I decide what price I am willing to spend not the seller, if a seller is way out of the ballpark then I walk with no regrets.

 

Sounds like we are pretty much birds of a feather then. The dealer dropped the price 750$ actually, but still wanted 1000$ more than current list on PCGS and CAC. If you are willing, could you message me with the dealers you are comfortable with ? I'd be appreciative, integrity should be rewarded....

[Nutmeg Coin]

I'd do more research.  What date is the coin?  I looked up the ones that in MS66 are worth over $4000 and there are not many.   

Check out the PCGS coin facts page which gives auction results in various grades.  

Also Heritage Auctions.  Many results in all grades with cac approved coins there.

[Wordsmyth]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:32 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

I'd do more research.  What date is the coin?  I looked up the ones that in MS66 are worth over $4000 and there are not many.   

Check out the PCGS coin facts page which gives auction results in various grades.  

Also Heritage Auctions.  Many results in all grades with cac approved coins there.

Thanks for the input, I'll start regularly checking the PCGS Facts page also. The coin was a MS66 1917-S Type 1 SLQ w/FH .  Not particularly scarce population wise, though this one had minimal toning. As I noted above, I determined through research that CAC and PCGS both stated $4500 as the current market value. Dealer wanted 1750 over that, $6250. When I asked for the reasoning he said because it has a CAC sticker. Not much else to say. Did more comparison shopping , found same coin and serial number listed with different Ebay dealer, at $7250 !! These guys want us to be their winning lottery number.

My post here was towards finding clarification on what was a typical/reasonable premium value of the CAC endorsement and the rationale behind it.  Answer seems to be whatever the dealer wants it to be, along with hoping for a less informed or less cost sensitive buyer. 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Always get a second or third opinion from a seasoned and honest dealer who may also be able to service a want list for you with a 5% or so charge.  

Rigorous analysis would include checking out all the recent auction records in that grade; population figures for cac and non-cac coins, you can assume that those without the sticker at that grade have not passed with cac.  An apples to apples comparison with other MS67 cac coins; there may be some superlative characteristic in the dealer's coin that warrants more money.

[CBC]

On 7/18/2022 at 7:39 PM, Nutmeg Coin said:

you can assume that those without the sticker at that grade have not passed with cac.

I would certainly not assume that.  Many (most?) collectors, like myself, don’t see any value in paying another fee plus postage both ways to have a fourth party confirm what I have already paid fees and postage both ways for a panel of third- party experts to evaluate.

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:44 AM, CBC said:

I would certainly not assume that.  Many (most?) collectors, like myself, don’t see any value in paying another fee plus postage both ways to have a fourth party confirm what I have already paid fees and postage both ways for a panel of third- party experts to evaluate.

It is very likely that collectors or dealers would send in expensive coins, less so coins with less of an incentive to get the green bean.   When you see a $3000-$4000 or more coin on Greysheet, with a big upside for getting the sticker why not send it in with others.  They've been refunding many of the submitters coins that don't get the sticker.   Maurice Rosen did an interview with the head of CAC a few years ago and revealed statistics on cac success rates as you went from MS65-MS67 and success rates increased with the higher grades.

[CBC]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:51 PM, Nutmeg Coin said:

It is very likely that collectors or dealers would send in expensive coins, less so coins with less of an incentive to get the green bean. 

You’re probably correct for $3000 - $4000 and up coins.  Those are way out of my range; I only have maybe ten or so coins that would go over $1000 and I bought most of those long ago for much less than that.  The CAC stickers I do have are mostly on MS 66+ and MS 67 coins.  Interesting comment that they have been refunding (fees I assume) submissions that did not get the sticker.