A "Complete" Morgan Dollar Collection 1 1

[EagleRJO]

I recently started collection coins as a hobby, and I am really enjoying it.  I am starting out with collecting some more common larger coins, including the Morgan Silver Dollars.  I intend on eventually having a "complete" set of Morgan Dollars, which I would like to have one coin from each mint for all the years.  I don't intend on trying to get all the errors, just normal business-strike production coins as intended for that year, and I know some years and mint marks are going to be really hard or expensive to get in decent condition, but that is my goal.

I am starting at each end in the spread of years and working inwards, with an occasional additional year/mint as they come up.  However, I already am running into an issue as to what would be "complete" for the first year 1878.  I have an 1878-S and 1878-CC, and I am looking for an 1878 (P) coin (regular production 1878 coin from the Philadelphia mint, with no mint mark).

Here is the rub.  Die errors/mis-strikes aside (e.g. 1903-S Micro S), I don't know if there is just one coin that would fit my intent as being the single intended production run coin for that year/mint.  I don't see available from a reputable dealer or a listing in the Red Book for just an "1878" Morgan.  My understanding is that the year started out producing an eagle with 8 tailfeathers, and then based on some negative comments the regular run was changed to 7 tailfeather.

I have been told by one coin expert that the "1878 Morgan Dollar 7 Tailfeathers Rev of 78" is the standard business-strike coin for that year, with far more produced.  So, I guess that could fit my bill for having an 1878 (P) coin in my collection.  However, I have also heard from another expert that the initial 8 Tailfeather 1878 Morgan Dollar was indeed a standard business-strike coin for that year, and they just changed mid-production so I should also add an 1878 8 TF Morgan Dollar to have a "complete" business-strike collection.  What do some of you here think? 

Edited August 2, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

Welcome. I use whatever dates and variety's the NGC Registry set asks for so you would be building a full set and having a nice place to keep track of your progress. Just a thought.  

[DWLange]

Since you have the 1878-CC and 1878-S that means you're covered for 1878 7TF Rev of 78, which shares their reverse type. The 1878 7TF Rev of 79 is on all the P Mints after 1878, so I recommend you get an 1878 8TF, since it doesn't appear on any other issue in the series. That maximizes your varieties.

[EagleRJO]

Yea, they have 6 for that year like the red book.

BTW, my wallet is really not looking forward to getting to 1893 of the set ... ;-)

Edited July 9, 2022 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 7/9/2022 at 7:23 PM, DWLange said:

Since you have the 1878-CC and 1878-S that means you're covered for 1878 7TF Rev of 78, which shares their reverse type. The 1878 7TF Rev of 79 is on all the P Mints after 1878, so I recommend you get an 1878 8TF, since it doesn't appear on any other issue in the series. That maximizes your varieties.

I'm not really looking to cover the basic designs, but instead I intend to eventually collect all the regular business-strike Morgans.  I'm leaning towards 4 Morgans for 1878 including 1878-CC, 1878-S, 1878 8 TF and 1878 7 TF since both the 8TF and 7TF were regular production coins for that year.  Similar to the 2021-W Type 1 (Heraldic) and 2021-W Type 2 (Flying) Proof Silver American Eagles I have for that year. 

[RWB]

Mr. Lange offers good advice -- as always. (Except about cats.....)

The 8-tail feather reverse was the one used on the first issues made at the Philadelphia Mint. By the time working dies were sent to Carson and San Francisco, the reverse had been changed to 7-tail feathers plus some other minor differences.

Some 1878-P coin also have 7/8-tail feathers. This was created when George Morgan took some new 8-TF dies and over-pressed them with the new 7-TH hub. Depending on the precise alignment of old and new, some of the original 8-TF peak out below the 7-TF. Other coins show no extra feathers but have other bits of the original reverse visible; yet others, appear perfect except for the shape of the end of the central arrow shaft.

Edited July 10, 2022 by RWB

[zadok]

On 7/9/2022 at 7:43 PM, EagleRJO said:

I'm not really looking to cover the basic designs, but instead I intend to eventually collect all the regular business-strike Morgans.  I'm leaning towards 4 Morgans for 1878 including 1878-CC, 1878-S, 1878 8 TF and 1878 7 TF since both the 8TF and 7TF were regular production coins for that year.  Similar to the 2021-W Type 1 (Heraldic) and 2021-W Type 2 (Flying) Proof Silver American Eagles I have for that year. 

...if u follow DWL's advice u will cover the same criteria with one less coin....

[Coinbuf]

Welcome to the forum, a coin collection is as much or as little as you define it to be.   There are no hard and fast rules to what dates should or should not be included, that is completely up to each collector, the only exception is if you decide to do a registry set or have a complete set as defined by what a particular album has holes for.   That said I think Mr. Lange's suggestion is a very good one and would likely be the way I would collect the 1878 date myself.

Best of luck on your journey.

[EagleRJO]

As I'm reading comments and doing a little more digging, including what's in an NGC "Complete" Registry Set, it looks like I will need more than the original 3 or 4 I was planning on for 1878 for a complete business-strike Morgan Dollar set which is what I was intending on collecting.

It looks like it was intended to produce both the 8 TF and then 7 TF coins, including re-striking existing 8 TF coins with the 7 TF die, as well as starting to strike coins with the 79 Rev later in the year.  So, it looks like 6 coins for 1878, or basically what is listed in the red book, for what I am envisioning is in a "complete" set for me.

And it's going to get even more interesting when I get to 1880 ;-) ... and then 1893 (particularly the 1893-S, offfff) because I am shooting for AU/BU coins, or VF as a minimum.  About that, any suggestions on where to look for some of the rarer dates/mints (other than eBay and sites like apmex) would be appreciated ... like maybe getting lucky at coin shows or estate sales?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Zebo]

On 7/10/2022 at 1:13 AM, EagleRJO said:

As I'm reading comments and doing a little more digging, including what's in an NGC "Complete" Registry Set, it looks like I will need more than the original 3 or 4 I was planning on for 1878 for a complete business-strike Morgan Dollar set which is what I was intending on collecting.

It looks like it was intended to produce both the 8 TF and then 7 TF coins, including re-striking existing 8 TF coins with the 7 TF die, as well as starting to strike coins with the 79 Rev later in the year.  So, it looks like 6 coins for 1878, or basically what is listed in the red book, for what I am envisioning is in a "complete" set for me.

And it's going to get even more interesting when I get to 1880 ;-) ... and then 1893 (particularly the 1893-S, offfff) because I am shooting for AU/BU coins, or VF as a minimum.  About that, any suggestions on where to look for some of the rarer dates/mints (other than eBay and sites like apmex) would be appreciated ... like maybe getting lucky at coin shows or estate sales?

Thanks for the help.

 

Take a look at Northern Nevada Coin or Broken CC. They usually have a large inventory and will give you an idea of retail prices. https://northernnevadacoin.com/amazing-broken-cc/. Just one of many to explore.

[J P M]

On 7/10/2022 at 7:10 AM, Zebo said:

Take a look at Northern Nevada Coin or Broken CC. They usually have a large inventory and will give you an idea of retail prices. https://northernnevadacoin.com/amazing-broken-cc/. Just one of many to explore.

I have also used Northeast Numismatics when looking for a hard to find item https://www.northeastcoin.com/index.jsp 

[Just Bob]

On 7/10/2022 at 12:13 AM, EagleRJO said:

 

It looks like it was intended to produce both the 8 TF and then 7 TF coins, including re-striking existing 8 TF coins with the 7 TF die, as well as starting to strike coins with the 79 Rev later in the year.  

 

There would be no need for the mint to re-strike existing coins. Are you perhaps referring to the 7/8 tail feather reverse that RWB mentioned above? As he stated in his post, these were the result of existing 8-feather dies being re-hubbed with a slightly different design which had 7 tail feathers.

[EagleRJO]

Thanks for the suggestions.  How about places/events where I can find raw coins that have not been graded/slabbed yet?

And what about rolls of older coins I sometimes see for sale on eBay, although I find it hard to believe someone hasn't already searched through the rolls to look for very valuable ones and then re-rolled the remaining common ones.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:45 AM, EagleRJO said:

Thanks for the suggestions.  How about places/events where I can find raw coins that have not been graded/slabbed yet?  And what about rolls of older coins I sometimes see for sale on eBay, although I find it hard to believe someone hasn't already searched through the rolls to look for very valuable ones and then re-rolled the remaining common ones.  

Local, regional, and the national coin shows.  Where do you live ?

[EagleRJO]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:27 AM, Just Bob said:

There would be no need for the mint to re-strike existing coins. Are you perhaps referring to the 7/8 tail feather reverse that RWB mentioned above? As he stated in his post, these were the result of existing 8-feather dies being re-hubbed with a slightly different design which had 7 tail feathers.

Yes, I meant re-working the dies which resulted in the 7/8 TF coins. Looks like they were trying to make the change to 7 TF coins right away before the new 7 TF dies were available.  I guess that's not really a mint error, so it's included in the NGC Complete set.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:48 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Local, regional, and the national coin shows.  Where do you live ?

I'm in NY, just outside NY City

[Coinbuf]

How you are collecting, raw coins vs slabbed coins, will dictate where you can find good coins.   The very best resource for finding coins, both raw and slabbed, without paying high retail is to network with other collectors.   If there is a coin club in your area joining and being active might lead to finding some of the coins you want at (possibly) slightly lower prices.   Plus you have the added benefit of seeing the coins before you buy them.   The coin marketplace here on the forum is another resource that you can use to look for coins, it has limited use due to the small number of active participants here.   But it is free to use and never hurts to look or place a want to buy thread and see if you get any bites.   As there is no real safety net or recourse on the forum please use caution and get references if you are unsure before you send monies, we don't see many but every now and then a scammer does show up.

Auction sites like Heritage and Great Collections are excellent sources of slabbed coins, you will pay retail prices but not the high retail prices that you will from many other places.   You may on occasion find a "deal" on Ebay and apmex, but you are more likely to pay full retail or get lesser quality coins.   There are any number of good dealers, both national and (sometimes) local, these can often be a source for better quality coins but the flip side is you will most often pay high retail.   After all many dealers are buying from the auction sites I noted above and then marking up to make their profit.

Circling back to my first comment, if you are planning to buy raw coins please do your research before buying, there are many very deceptive counterfeits out there.   I would strongly suggest that you only consider buying the key dates slabbed, paying thousands of dollars for a twenty dollar fake really stings.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/10/2022 at 12:13 PM, Coinbuf said:

How you are collecting, raw coins vs slabbed coins, will dictate where you can find good coins. ...

Thanks, I am looking more at raw coins for the common ones, and plan on buying slabbed coins for the more expensive key dates.  I will check out those auction sites when I get to some of the more expensive key dates.  About the raw coins, someone suggested estate sales that have coins, as sometimes collectors spend years searching for and collecting coins and accumulate quite a hoard of good coins.

[RWB]

On 7/10/2022 at 1:13 AM, EagleRJO said:

including re-striking existing 8 TF coins with the 7 TF die,

Nope. Expanding a little on previous posters.

Coins were never "restruck" in the manner suggested.  As an expediency, Morgan used unhardened 8-TF reverse dies and pressed them with the new 7-TF hub. This created 7-TF reverse dies very quickly but also resulted in dies where small parts of the original 8-TF design were not obliterated. (The original 8-TF design, master die and hubs had irregular curvature to the field and this made it difficult for machinists to adjust die basin radius (curvature) after final heat treatment.

(PS: Almost every time a new eagle appeared on US coins, ornithologists - amateur and professions - claimed something was wrong with the bird. In 1878 it was supposed that eagles had an odd number of tail feathers.)

Edited July 10, 2022 by RWB

[EagleRJO]

On 7/10/2022 at 1:15 PM, RWB said:

Nope. Cons were never "restruck" in the manner suggested.  As an expediency, Morgan used unhardened 8-TF reverse dies and pressed them with the new 7-TF hub. This created 7-TF reverse dies very quickly but also resulted in dies where small parts of the original 8-TF design were not obliterated. (The original 8-TF design, master die and hubs had irregular curvature to the field and this made it difficult for machinists to adjust die basin radius (curvature) after final heat treatment.

Yea, that's what I meant as indicated in my reply to Just Bob above.  Doesn't sound like a good plan they had, but it looks like those coins are considered regular business-strike coins from that mint, and therefore included in the NGC "complete" registry list and the red book.  So, I think I will add the 1878 7/8 TF to my list for that year.

Now, to find good condition ones at a reasonable price ... that's probably the real challenge that's going to take some time.

[RWB]

All coins made by the US Mint are "business strikes" because that's their business. What you are referring to are "circulation" strikes. This differentiated them from "proof" coins, "Master" coins, "pattern" pieces, etc.

Nice EF Morgan dollars are not expensive -- at least the common dates. It's only when sellers add the high cost of "authentication and grading" that prices become unreasonable for common coins. You'll have to check with NGC about requirements for on-line "competitive" sets.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:53 AM, EagleRJO said:

I'm in NY, just outside NY City

Do you attend any of the surburban NYC-area shows:  Westchester.....Mt. Kisco....Parsippany ?  There's also some on Long Island but I've never gone.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/10/2022 at 1:34 PM, RWB said:

All coins made by the US Mint are "business strikes" because that's their business. What you are referring to are "circulation" strikes. This differentiated them from "proof" coins, "Master" coins, "pattern" pieces, etc. ....

 

Can you explain to this newbie ... I thought there were 3 basic types of coins from a mint: Proof Strikes, Uncirculated Strikes and Business Strikes.  With Proof being the typical collector coin that have been available for quite some time (e.g. I have purchased individual mint packaged Morgans and Eagles for my collection directly from the US Mint or from dealers identified as "Proof" coins), the Uncirculated (aka "Burnished") coins which are a relative newer thing for collectors starting about 15 years ago, and the Business or "Circulation" Strike coins being the ones packaged in bags or rolls in large quantities for general distribution to the public.

And that what some call "uncirculated" coins from rolls or bags are actually Business or "Circulation" strike coins that were kept in the original bags/rolls and then sold like that or broken out into individual coins for sale.  Like these bags/rolls of 2022 Kennedy Half Dollars available to the general public recently described as "coins with circulating finishes that have never been released into circulation" ... https://catalog.usmint.gov/kennedy-2022-half-dollar-200-coin-bag-22KA.html?cgid=kennedy-half-dollars

Now ya have me thinking I don't know what I thought I knew ... ;-)

[RWB]

On 7/10/2022 at 6:42 PM, EagleRJO said:

Proof Strikes, Uncirculated Strikes and Business Strikes.

There are:

Proof coins ... Specially made from polished dies. Modern version are assumed to have frosted relief a mirror-like fields.

Circulation (Uncirculated) coins (circulation strikes) ... Normal pieces struck in large quantities for commercial use or for packaging in mint sets (aka "uncirculated sets"). In use, they become circulated coins, and

Special collector coins ... Pieces made with various finishes for sale to collectors, but with little clear differentiation in what, how, or why they were made.

ALL of the above are part of the Mint's business of making coins, and ALL are included in the term "business strikes."

In talking with other collectors most will assume "business strike" refers to coins made for normal circulation. Clarity in discussing coins indicates that it is better to use specific terms so that everyone understands and does not have to rely on context for meaning.

It appears the unfortunate misuse of "business strike" is traceable to Walter Breen who used the term indiscriminately. He also is responsible for other false and misleading coin terms which are best tossed into the dust bin.

Edited July 10, 2022 by RWB

[EagleRJO]

Thanks, so I guess when I say "business strikes" in the posts above I mean "circulation strikes" that may or may not have been actually circulated.  So, to clarify I intend on assembling a complete "circulation strike" collection of the Morgan Dollars, even though some of them may be "uncirculated" coins directly from the mint.

Also, I have heard a rough rule of thumb that getting raw coins graded for typical/common coins valued under like $400 to $500 really isn't worth it, because it doesn't add that much value for those coins.  Any truth to that rumor ... ;-)

Edited July 11, 2022 by EagleRJO
typo

[RWB]

On 7/10/2022 at 8:13 PM, EagleRJO said:

Thanks, so I guess when I say "business strikes" in the posts above I mean "circulation strikes" that may or may not have been actually circulated.  So, to clarify I intend on assembling a complete "circulation strike" collection of the Morgan Dollars, even though some of them may be "uncirculated" coins directly from the mint.

Also, I have heard a rough rule of thumb that getting raw coins graded for typical/common coins valued under like $400 to $500 really isn't worth it, because it doesn't add that much value for those coins.  Any truth to that rumor ... ;-)

Yep, on both statements. Some consider $200 the minimum value, others base it on other considerations. The difficulty is that authentication and grading of common coins (@ approx $50 cost) leaves you with no additional value for the coin.

[Coinbuf]

On 7/10/2022 at 5:13 PM, EagleRJO said:

Also, I have heard a rough rule of thumb that getting raw coins graded for typical/common coins valued under like $400 to $500 really isn't worth it, because it doesn't add that much value for those coins.  Any truth to that rumor ... ;-)

There are thousands and thousands of coins worth $50 (or less) in TPG slabs, value before and after slabbing is important but only one of the considerations.

[RWB]

On 7/10/2022 at 9:11 PM, Coinbuf said:

There are thousands and thousands of coins worth $50 (or less) in TPG slabs, value before and after slabbing is important but only one of the considerations.

Nearly all were put there years ago when prices were cheaper and dealers were trying to get "high grades."

[Coinbuf]

On 7/10/2022 at 6:15 PM, RWB said:

Nearly all were put there years ago when prices were cheaper and dealers were trying to get "high grades."

While I agree that those are conditions for some of the low value coins in holders, I would not say that "nearly all" is correct.   I would argue that the numbers are as high or higher now due to inexperienced submitters looking for a home run error or variety.   I can recall at least a few people from this forum alone that happily shared the pocket change that they sent in for grading.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/10/2022 at 9:11 PM, Coinbuf said:

There are thousands and thousands of coins worth $50 (or less) in TPG slabs, value before and after slabbing is important but only one of the considerations.

I guess many of them -- if slabbed when prices were higher -- would have holders from 1989-1994, right ?